Something to ponder!

[Al Wohlstrom]

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language. We have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.'

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

President Harry Truman deported over two million Illegal's after WWII to create jobs for returning veterans.

And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million Mexican nationals! The program was called 'Operation Wetback' so that American WWII and Korean veterans
had a better chance at jobs. It took 2 Years, but they deported them!

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.

President Harry Truman deported over two million Illegal's after WWII to create jobs for returning veterans.

And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million Mexican nationals! The program was called 'Operation Wetback' so that American WWII and Korean veterans
had a better chance at jobs. It took 2 Years, but they deported them!

WOW!! Talk about facts missing from the history books. I never heard about that. There is no folklore about it or or disparaging Hollywood movies. This has Sean Penn written all over it. Would be another Oscar winning movie nobody would watch....

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The thing is, If we continue to be complacent and don't let the high paid morons that are running this country know how we feel, we are going to be speaking spanish and living in the United Socialist States of America! The way things are going, this isn't too far fetched!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

This was in The Christian Science Monitor, different numbers, but the same result!
How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico
By John Dillin

WASHINGTON –
George W. Bush isn't the first Republican president to face a full-blown immigration crisis on the US-Mexican border.
Fifty-three years ago, when newly elected Dwight Eisenhower moved into the White House, America's southern frontier was as porous as a spaghetti sieve. As many as 3 million illegal migrants had walked and waded northward over a period of several years for jobs in California, Arizona, Texas, and points beyond.






President Eisenhower cut off this illegal traffic. He did it quickly and decisively with only 1,075 United States Border Patrol agents - less than one-tenth of today's force. The operation is still highly praised among veterans of the Border Patrol.


Although there is little to no record of this operation in Ike's official papers, one piece of historic evidence indicates how he felt. In 1951, Ike wrote a letter to Sen. William Fulbright (D) of Arkansas. The senator had just proposed that a special commission be created by Congress to examine unethical conduct by government officials who accepted gifts and favors in exchange for special treatment of private individuals.

General Eisenhower, who was gearing up for his run for the presidency, said "Amen" to Senator Fulbright's proposal. He then quoted a report in The New York Times, highlighting one paragraph that said: "The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican 'wetbacks' to a current rate of more than 1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government."

Years later, the late Herbert Brownell Jr., Eisenhower's first attorney general, said in an interview with this writer that the president had a sense of urgency about illegal immigration when he took office.

America "was faced with a breakdown in law enforcement on a very large scale," Mr. Brownell said. "When I say large scale, I mean hundreds of thousands were coming in from Mexico [every year] without restraint."

Although an on-and-off guest-worker program for Mexicans was operating at the time, farmers and ranchers in the Southwest had become dependent on an additional low-cost, docile, illegal labor force of up to 3 million, mostly Mexican, laborers.

According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.

Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.

Walt Edwards, who joined the Border Patrol in 1951, tells a similar story. He says: "When we caught illegal aliens on farms and ranches, the farmer or rancher would often call and complain [to officials in El Paso]. And depending on how politically connected they were, there would be political intervention. That is how we got into this mess we are in now."

Bill Chambers, who worked for a combined 33 years for the Border Patrol and the then-called US Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), says politically powerful people are still fueling the flow of illegals.

During the 1950s, however, this "Good Old Boy" system changed under Eisenhower - if only for about 10 years.

In 1954, Ike appointed retired Gen. Joseph "Jumpin' Joe" Swing, a former West Point classmate and veteran of the 101st Airborne, as the new INS commissioner.

Influential politicians, including Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson (D) of Texas and Sen. Pat McCarran (D) of Nevada, favored open borders, and were dead set against strong border enforcement, Brownell said. But General Swing's close connections to the president shielded him - and the Border Patrol - from meddling by powerful political and corporate interests.

One of Swing's first decisive acts was to transfer certain entrenched immigration officials out of the border area to other regions of the country where their political connections with people such as Senator Johnson would have no effect.

Then on June 17, 1954, what was called "Operation Wetback" began. Because political resistance was lower in California and Arizona, the roundup of aliens began there. Some 750 agents swept northward through agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Another 488,000, fearing arrest, had fled the country.

By mid-July, the crackdown extended northward into Utah, Nevada, and Idaho, and eastward to Texas.

By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegals had left the Lone Star State voluntarily.

Unlike today, Mexicans caught in the roundup were not simply released at the border, where they could easily reenter the US. To discourage their return, Swing arranged for buses and trains to take many aliens deep within Mexico before being set free.

Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to Vera Cruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles south.

The sea voyage was "a rough trip, and they did not like it," says Don Coppock, who worked his way up from Border Patrolman in 1941 to eventually head the Border Patrol from 1960 to 1973.

Mr. Coppock says he "cannot understand why [President] Bush let [today's] problem get away from him as it has. I guess it was his compassionate conservatism, and trying to please [Mexican President] Vincente Fox."

There are now said to be 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the US. Of the Mexicans who live here, an estimated 85 percent are here illegally.

Border Patrol vets offer tips on curbing illegal immigration
One day in 1954, Border Patrol agent Walt Edwards picked up a newspaper in Big Spring, Texas, and saw some startling news. The government was launching an all-out drive to oust illegal aliens from the United States.

The orders came straight from the top, where the new president, Dwight Eisenhower, had put a former West Point classmate, Gen. Joseph Swing, in charge of immigration enforcement.

General Swing's fast-moving campaign soon secured America's borders - an accomplishment no other president has since equaled. Illegal migration had dropped 95 percent by the late 1950s.

Several retired Border Patrol agents who took part in the 1950s effort, including Mr. Edwards, say much of what Swing did could be repeated today.

"Some say we cannot send 12 million illegals now in the United States back where they came from. Of course we can!" Edwards says.

Donald Coppock, who headed the Patrol from 1960 to 1973, says that if Swing and Ike were still running immigration enforcement, "they'd be on top of this in a minute."

William Chambers, another '50s veteran, agrees. "They could do a pretty good job" sealing the border.

Edwards says: "When we start enforcing the law, these various businesses are, on their own, going to replace their [illegal] workforce with a legal workforce."

While Congress debates building a fence on the border, these veterans say other actions should have higher priority.

1. End the current practice of taking captured Mexican aliens to the border and releasing them. Instead, deport them deep into Mexico, where return to the US would be more costly.

2. Crack down hard on employers who hire illegals. Without jobs, the aliens won't come.

3. End "catch and release" for non-Mexican aliens. It is common for illegal migrants not from Mexico to be set free after their arrest if they promise to appear later before a judge. Few show up.

The Patrol veterans say enforcement could also be aided by a legalized guest- worker program that permits Mexicans to register in their country for temporary jobs in the US. Eisenhower's team ran such a program. It permitted up to 400,000 Mexicans a year to enter the US for various agriculture jobs that lasted for 12 to 52 weeks.

 

[Neal]

The thing is, If we continue to be complacent and don't let the high paid morons that are running this country know how we feel, we are going to be speaking spanish and living in the United Socialist States of America! The way things are going, this isn't too far fetched!

Ke Pasa Al? It's too late. Home Depot has become the next tent city...

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I would hate to think that it is too late!

 

[Ian K]

Something else to ponder regarding DDE's Operation Wetback:

In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children,
who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for
interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking"
citizens on the street and asking for identification. This practice incited and angered many
U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States
and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned.

The government's deportation methods were beyond suspect. A congressional
investigation described the Mercurio as a "hell ship" where abuse of deportees may have
been rampant. According to a United Press report from August 1956, "The Justice
Department permitted the Immigration Service to crowd 500 Mexicans aboard a ship that
normally carried seventy to ninety persons." The Mercurio's two lifeboats had a total
capacity of 48. Less than a week after the House Government Committee investigation
was made public, Mexicans mutinied aboard the ship after 40 people jumped overboard and
seven drowned in an attempt to reach shore. Deportations by ship were halted.

Forgotten in that decade and since was the Truman commission on illegal immigration that
came closest to solving the issue, but at a price: Better wages for migrant laborers and
strictly regulated working conditions. Federal agents wouldn't be raiding workplaces to
check on the legality of workers, but to verify employers' documentation of fair pay and
the kind of working conditions Americans would not consider beneath them. Employers'
advantage of hiring illegal immigrants would vanish. No demand, no need for supply. The
recommendations never became law. And guess which group was largely responsible for
defeating those recommendations? The big farmers.

DDE's deportation methods were very similar to the same Soviet mass deportation sweeps
initiated by Stalin. I am not sure we really want to hold them up as a model to follow.

Again, I wish it were black and white, but it isn't.

Ian

 

[Brian Hamilton]

I also understand it's not a black & white issue. There is an enormous grey area, and it's many different shades of grey. What we do need to do though, is stop the illegal immigration and stop the immediate welfare benefits to parents who walk across the river to have kids in the US and live on our dime.

Welfare is actually a pretty good concept, but it's real world practice is a joke. It's meant to be a helping hand to those in financial trouble. Not a way of life. I have no problem helping people get back on their feet, but damnit there needs to be a time limit in place. You should only be eligible for welfare for 6 months, no longer. If you haven't been applying for jobs or haven't gotten a job by then, you need ot reapply.

Just my thoughts on the program.

 

[Jack]

Welfare is for the legitimately NEEDY, period!

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Molleur - You and I see "legitimately needy" different than the politicians
Katrina was the best example. While the 9th. ward welfare recipients were still waiting for government assistance our kind were already cleaning up and rebuilding their lives.
Throughout my life I never looked to the government for anything. I always knew that if I didn't do something I wouldn't get paid or fed or be able to own nice things.
I think we are lucky to have grown up in times when parents instilled values in their children and gifted us with that entrepreneur gene.

Have you looked into the "Micro-Loan" phenomena? Programs that give small amounts of money to entrepreneurs in 3rd world countries. Nearly 90% of these loans are repaid and have already helped thousands of small businessmen and women in their quest for a better life.
Blanket welfare programs only help politicians to be reelected.

 

[Jack]

Amen, Mike!

 

[Bill Musarra]

I have a little quiz for all who contributed to this thread. I have avoided it because I have mixed feelings on it all. So here is my question with an answer to follow.

What defines a country?

What makes India different from China
Stated another way, what makes India, India? What makes China China?
What DEFINES India? China? Sweeden? France? Italy? Brazil? Egypt? Iran? Japan? It used to be the same thing for the U S when I was a younger boy. It is rapidly disolving today in many countrys around the globe.
There are 3 three basic things that define each country. If that country is to remain that country and not meld into oblivion, there are but these three things that will keep that country what it is and basicly where it is going. Do you know them?
Guess, then scroll down for the answer.


















































1. Language


2. Borders


3 Culture

Do away with these or allow them to be changed and the destiny of your country and your dreams for your country will be changed forever.

 

[Jack]

Well stated Bill.

 

[Ian K]

Really Bill? Are you sure?

I'll agree with 2 & 3, but 1, not way.

India has no national language. The Republic of India has a primary official language of
Hindi, and a secondary of English. Each state can legislate its own official language,
and as of 2001, there are 29 languages with more than a million native speakers.

China has 6 distinct linguistic families which are mutually unintelligible, but no official
language country wide.

The rest may have official languages, but they all have secondary languages, some
have many. And, many use specific languages in business and amongst the educated
which differ from their official language.

Ian

 

[Bill Musarra]

I guess I stand corrected on that one. I know that most countries have many dialects. Italy stands out the best to me. Some southern Italians can not understand northern dialects. Even in the U S it varies from New Orleans(Cajun) to the south side of Chicago. Some are fairly unintelligible, but still are variants of the main language with an etnic twist. I guess I chose some poor examples. I guess that with all that you outlined, culture would be on shaky legs as well. I guess what I was trying to convey is that they have a commonality amongst them. A nationalistic unity/pride. I am not trying to get tied up in the microcosm of each country, but convey the thought that to be one country, there has to be some nationalistic direction that overshadows the ethnic diversity that makes up the country. To my way of thinking, one should adopt the base language(at least attempt),or the dialect of the country to which they have adopted as their new home. It seems rather ridiculous to expect the mother country to accomodate your language as an equal. I understand the wanting to be a part of the comunity in a foreign land that is similar to ones own. But to get along and survive, one should make the effort to "blend in" so to speak. You go to that country for a reason, job, ecconomics, mariage etc. It just seems absurd to not make an effort.
As the little guy says, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I am still wrong? Who knows

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Ian, I often wondered why California is in the financial mess that it's in. It's now abundantly clear. Tell me, what does ILLEGAL mean to you? Does it denote the breaking of a law? Does it mean doing something ILLEGAL. They are not "Undocumented Workers" as our esteemed leader puts it, they are ILLEGAL ALIENS. They are not here by LEGAL means! They have come here ILLEGALY! There are 20,000,000 of them eating up our tax dollars. They don't deserve Social Security, Welfare, Health benefits or expensive incarceration in our prison systems (30,000 of them). They don't deserve to form gangs and terrorize lawbiding people. Mexican gangs are the fastest growing and most brutal in the US. If they have children while they are here, they can take them back with them or leave the US citizen here. They know that if they have a child in the USA that it will be a citizen. They also know that some whiny Liberal will have the proper response. Have no fear, California will raise taxes again and again to pay for your beliefs. Good luck with that!

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

India? - Ian you gotta be kidding me. If you pull up India as an example for anything but a total failure of civilization you need watch a few documentaries about that cesspool.

Borders! Language! Culture!

It's a pretty simple concept everybody can prosper by - of course Liberals like to have a large segment of the population without access to the american dream. Nothing like keeping the masses stupid by letting them speak their native loser tongue.
150 years ago the elite all over Europe spoke french and they thought they were so cool because the unwashed masses only could converse in their native tongue. In church their pedophile priest spoke latin, again quite a disconnect with the average Joe.
Making immigrants learn english is not a punishment Ian but faster access to a better life, but maybe you like being the elitist and enjoy being better than the guy who cooked your meal or mowed your lawn. Sad really...

 

[Ian K]

India? - Ian you gotta be kidding me. If you pull up India as an example for anything but a total failure of civilization you need watch a few documentaries about that cesspool.

Borders! Language! Culture!

It's a pretty simple concept everybody can prosper by - of course Liberals like to have a large segment of the population without access to the american dream. Nothing like keeping the masses stupid by letting them speak their native loser tongue.
150 years ago the elite all over Europe spoke french and they thought they were so cool because the unwashed masses only could converse in their native tongue. In church their pedophile priest spoke latin, again quite a disconnect with the average Joe.
Making immigrants learn english is not a punishment Ian but faster access to a better life, but maybe you like being the elitist and enjoy being better than the guy who cooked your meal or mowed your lawn. Sad really...

Err, Mike, Bill brought up India as an example of his three things that define a country.
I stated that India does not fit his example.

I have no problem making immigrants learn English, but that is not the point of bilingual
teaching. Bilingual teaching is for non-English speakers, here legally or illegally, who
already have some degree of education and want to build upon what they have already
learned in their home country. Forcing them into English only classrooms/schools stalls
their education. Imagine knowing Algebra in your native tongue, and coming to the US,
only to sit in advanced Algebra classrooms where only English is used? Until you learn
the language, how much time will you waste learning concepts that build upon knowledge
you already have? Studies show that such an environment can put back the average
non English speaking student years, almost qualifying them for more Federal resources
since they basically start falling into the remedial programs.

Oh, one more thing - I cook my own meals and mow my own lawn. And do most of my
own home improvement, repair, and landscaping (the house we bought was originally sitting on
dirt, now the compliments from neighbors, anonymous passer bys, and even the original
owner and his daughter from back in the 60's definitely serve as reward for the hard work
my wife and I put in, using only hand tools). About the only things I will not do are major
remodelling (i.e. adding rooms), major plumbing and major electrical, not because I can't,
but making a mistake can have tremendous consequences. Better to have a licensed
(and legal) contractor do it.

Ian

 

[Ian K]

Ian, I often wondered why California is in the financial mess that it's in. It's now abundantly clear. Tell me, what does ILLEGAL mean to you? Does it denote the breaking of a law? Does it mean doing something ILLEGAL. They are not "Undocumented Workers" as our esteemed leader puts it, they are ILLEGAL ALIENS. They are not here by LEGAL means! They have come here ILLEGALY! There are 20,000,000 of them eating up our tax dollars. They don't deserve Social Security, Welfare, Health benefits or expensive incarceration in our prison systems (30,000 of them). They don't deserve to form gangs and terrorize lawbiding people. Mexican gangs are the fastest growing and most brutal in the US. If they have children while they are here, they can take them back with them or leave the US citizen here. They know that if they have a child in the USA that it will be a citizen. They also know that some whiny Liberal will have the proper response. Have no fear, California will raise taxes again and again to pay for your beliefs. Good luck with that!

Al, I know entirely what ILLEGAL means. But if you think the "Undocumented Workers"/
ILLEGAL ALIENS are the problem with California's economy, then you are blind to what
the problem truly is. You know what California's biggest problem is? The 1% Property Tax
and limited increases put into law via Prop 13 , and the fact that it takes a 2/3 majority
vote to change that. California's Property Tax is 1/4 the US average. When the economy
was flying high, it didn't make too many people worry (though many economists did - even
Warren Buffet states that Prop 13 is a big problem, illustrating how his $4 million dollar home
in Laguna Beach yielded $2264 in property taxes in 2003, while his $500K home in Omaha,
NE yielded $14,401 in property taxes that same year), but it set the stage. Now, the CA
government is raising other taxes to compensate for the lack of revenue from "normal"
property taxes, and these "new" taxes will offset any Federal stimulus aid.

Regardless, I agree with much of what you say, especially the 30,000 illegals who are
incarcerated - ship them back. The issue with US born children is a tough one, since the
laws are pretty clear and have been for a long time - the 14th Amendment and a Supreme
Court ruling in 1898, and followed up in 1992 and 1995. It should be noted that the in 1898
landmark case, the majority opinion was supported almost entirely of Republican appointed
Presidents, 6 Republican and 1 Democrat appointed in assent, 2 Republican appointed in
dissent. So, sending both illegal parents back to wherever they come from, but allowing
the children to stay here adds a burden on the Federal Government as well - the children
often wind up as wards of the state, placed into the adoption and foster home systems.
And, yes, I agree, the gang issue is a big one. As a matter of fact, the "mass deportations"
mentioned earlier were very successful because many of the illegal immigrants voluntarily
left out of fear, or because legitimate employers were hounded into not hiring illegals, but
that will absolutely have no effect on the illegals here as a result of drug trafficking and in
gangs because both the fear element and the lack of income from legitimate employers (I
am not saying they are legitimately employed, but that the businesses are legit) are non
issues.

And please do not intimate that I am a Liberal. I am a Moderate. There are both Liberal and
Conservative ideals that appeal to me. I prefer a balance of the two extremes, not one or
the other.

Ian

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Percentage wise our property taxes maybe low but when the average price of a starter home in Burbank, CA is still $550K the actual amount is quite staggering. I know a lot of people in Cali who make $15-$25 an hour working in our car world as fabricators or technicians. They are excluded from the american dream of home ownership. Hiking the property taxes would only make it worse as it also hurts those who rent.
The disparity between employment in the lip service professions and those who actually work for a living is eye opening in our state. This is solely caused by the cheap labor that can be gotten on every street corner.
A fake social security number from a street vendor on Alvarado Street, a faint knowledge of cars and whoop de doo you are Mr. Goodwrench. Disgruntled the old Mr. Goodwrench quits and moves to Oregon.....
I have seen so many skilled people leave so.cal. I often wonder who is left.