Ron Earp
Admin
Not here in the US.
Track day dilema... Wreck involved.
- Thread starter Conquest351
- Start date
Not here in the US.
The Red flag at our local Porsche Club events are that the cars are to come to a complete stop, off the line, to the right of the track, and in sight of the nearest turn station.
We use the Black flag if we want everyone to slowly come back to the paddock to clear the cars from the track.
I know this is not necessarily what is used by the scca or others, but it works great for our situations.
By the way, we did have a Porsche turbo blow a coolant line and spewed coolant on line 1/2 way around the track before we could get it stopped. The first car behind the trubo got off line when they saw the coolant, the second car behind didn't see the coolant, spun the car and the beautiful GT3 hit the wall. It was totaled. His insurance did cover the car in full minus his deductable.
There is event specific insurance that is available for HPDE days and cost around $200 for the event.
We use the Black flag if we want everyone to slowly come back to the paddock to clear the cars from the track.
I know this is not necessarily what is used by the scca or others, but it works great for our situations.
By the way, we did have a Porsche turbo blow a coolant line and spewed coolant on line 1/2 way around the track before we could get it stopped. The first car behind the trubo got off line when they saw the coolant, the second car behind didn't see the coolant, spun the car and the beautiful GT3 hit the wall. It was totaled. His insurance did cover the car in full minus his deductable.
There is event specific insurance that is available for HPDE days and cost around $200 for the event.
Ron Earp
Admin
And would be a damn good idea for some guys driving expensive cars out on track.
Brian Hamilton
I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
That's what this guy had, it was a single event race coverage. My friend has written his car off, he's actually kind of relieved that the car is dead because now he can build a real car rather than the 4 cyl turbo car. LOL
Chris Duncan
Supporter
my 2 cents
you don't intentionally stop in the middle of the track ever
normal insurance doesn't cover anything on the race track
on track days you can never hold anyone else liable for an accident no matter what the circumstance.
you don't intentionally stop in the middle of the track ever
normal insurance doesn't cover anything on the race track
on track days you can never hold anyone else liable for an accident no matter what the circumstance.
Best advice is, if you can't fix it or replace it, don't take it on the track.
Dave
Dave
Howard Jones
Supporter
1. Very fast car, turbo Porsche
2. 2nd track day
3. Advanced group
4. Unable to drive car well enough to need instruction (speculation)
5. Gets passed by faster car on preceding straight by guy who is quicker.
6. P guy chases advanced driver into corner after just letting him by.
7. Clearly too close to other car in a corner. P guy did hit him up the rear after all.
8. Red Flag.
9. wreck
10. You guys tell me, what else could have happened.
The P guy should bring the advanced guy a bottle, check, handshake, and a apology.
1,2 and 3 are the reason. 4,5, and 6 were the cause and 7,8 and 9 the result, 10 should be the outcome.
You can't hit ANYTHING, if you do it's your fault unless it's a A Arm failure or some other act of god. Even then you fix the other guys car. Or the fence. Or both.
By the way the red flag could have been waving because here was a massive crash all over the track right in front of the guy who slammed on the brakes. You just have to give some room into a blind exit corner. Geese the instructor should have been all over that. AND who gets advanced from novice to advanced in one day. The point is experience not how fast you can drive the damn car. Damn near anybody can drive a turbo Porsche fast enough to F it up.
2. 2nd track day
3. Advanced group
4. Unable to drive car well enough to need instruction (speculation)
5. Gets passed by faster car on preceding straight by guy who is quicker.
6. P guy chases advanced driver into corner after just letting him by.
7. Clearly too close to other car in a corner. P guy did hit him up the rear after all.
8. Red Flag.
9. wreck
10. You guys tell me, what else could have happened.
The P guy should bring the advanced guy a bottle, check, handshake, and a apology.
1,2 and 3 are the reason. 4,5, and 6 were the cause and 7,8 and 9 the result, 10 should be the outcome.
You can't hit ANYTHING, if you do it's your fault unless it's a A Arm failure or some other act of god. Even then you fix the other guys car. Or the fence. Or both.
By the way the red flag could have been waving because here was a massive crash all over the track right in front of the guy who slammed on the brakes. You just have to give some room into a blind exit corner. Geese the instructor should have been all over that. AND who gets advanced from novice to advanced in one day. The point is experience not how fast you can drive the damn car. Damn near anybody can drive a turbo Porsche fast enough to F it up.
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Pat Buckley
GT40s Supporter
The reason I don't do this kind of thing -open track- is because I expect testosterone driven stupidity to occur at any time and I refuse to be the recipient of it because I believe that no one owes anyone anything after a wreck.
After many years of racing formula cars from FV to FA with the SCCA, I have experienced quite a few incidents - whose fault it was determined who got to yell at who, but at no time was there ever a possibility that resulting damage should be paid for by the other guy. Of course I knew that all the other drivers had at least gone through some sort of drivers school(s) so I could expect some level of skill.
Generally speaking, most wrecks are not 100% the fault of just one party - so if one is expected to pay up for damage to the other guys car, how do you determine how much to pay?
What if you are driving a 20 year old POS worth about $15K and the other guy has a brand new Porsche GT worth $400,000?
After many years of racing formula cars from FV to FA with the SCCA, I have experienced quite a few incidents - whose fault it was determined who got to yell at who, but at no time was there ever a possibility that resulting damage should be paid for by the other guy. Of course I knew that all the other drivers had at least gone through some sort of drivers school(s) so I could expect some level of skill.
Generally speaking, most wrecks are not 100% the fault of just one party - so if one is expected to pay up for damage to the other guys car, how do you determine how much to pay?
What if you are driving a 20 year old POS worth about $15K and the other guy has a brand new Porsche GT worth $400,000?
I agree with Pat. On a race track you're responsible only for your own car regardless of who caused an accident. Having raced in SCCA and IMSA for 30 years we never had lawsuits. This is changing with track days and is very disturbing. You can buy trackday collision insiurance, but I'm not aware of any liability insurance available. Your regular auto insurance sure doesn't cover this. The liabilty issue may cause me to quit trackdays.
Ron Earp
Admin
I agree with everything but the check. Liability cannot be accurately determined on a road course and the norm is that "you're responsible for your car and your car only". This mode of operation has not lead to crash fests over the many years, however, if liability is entering into track day organizations then it won't be long before there are no more track days.
Very solid advice.
I agree 100% with Ron.
Track days to me appear to be an abomination where some guys with expensive cars and more money than talent can go on an ego trip.
We don't have much in the way of tracks days in this part of the world, although they are becoming more prevalent, so if those guys want to get out there they have to do it at a race meeting. Getting their arses kicked in wheel to wheel racing by an old $15000 club car means they either wake up their ideas pretty quick or they vanish never to be seen again. Generally they don't appear to start with. And I guess that's not all bad.....
I would dread the thought of insurance ever being available for racing, that would totally skew the playing field. Generally if one knows one has to pay for ones actions (ie fix your own car) then that does engender a sense of responsibility to the participants. Unforseen or unlucky accidents do happen, but on track generally it takes two to tango, you can go wheel to wheel if you want, or you can choose to back out of aggressive situations, it just depends whats at stake. But most of all you have to be vigilant and be aware of what is happening around you. QED
Track days to me appear to be an abomination where some guys with expensive cars and more money than talent can go on an ego trip.
We don't have much in the way of tracks days in this part of the world, although they are becoming more prevalent, so if those guys want to get out there they have to do it at a race meeting. Getting their arses kicked in wheel to wheel racing by an old $15000 club car means they either wake up their ideas pretty quick or they vanish never to be seen again. Generally they don't appear to start with. And I guess that's not all bad.....
I would dread the thought of insurance ever being available for racing, that would totally skew the playing field. Generally if one knows one has to pay for ones actions (ie fix your own car) then that does engender a sense of responsibility to the participants. Unforseen or unlucky accidents do happen, but on track generally it takes two to tango, you can go wheel to wheel if you want, or you can choose to back out of aggressive situations, it just depends whats at stake. But most of all you have to be vigilant and be aware of what is happening around you. QED
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Track days have become more and more popular in recent years. I have attended with different clubs and they are all run differently. On track day with club x, they didn't have enough instructors and announced to the drivers meeting that if someone has been there more than 4 times, they were an instructor for the day. We had no less than a dozen cars leave the track that day. Another day and a different club brand x2, the instructor pool was subject to one man and who he thought had been to the track enough times. It was an interesting day and their turn out is typically just their buddies. I have chosen not to participate with that club any longer.
Our club runs a really tight ship and a novice stays a novice until a seasoned instructor lets them advance to the next of four levels of ability. The instructors are asked (required a maximum of 2 years) to attend a sort of certification program yearly.
No one really wants to rub fenders on their high performance street cars, so we have a rule that everyone gets a 1 free spin per event. That is defined as 90 degrees to travel. If someone spins twice, they are sent home. That is just one of many rules we have.
As with anything, there is good and bad. We use the event of the Ferrari track day in California where a Porsche GT nailed a Ferrari. The men in the Porsche died at the track and the lawsuits flew. We learned alot from the forensics of the day. Alot of things that happened early in the day would have removed the Porsche from the day. In fact, because the Porsche didn't have a third party track inspection on the car, it would have never been on the track to begin with. The more that clubs follow the rules and adhere to them, the better chance that people will be protected and we can have fewer incidents.
Sorry for the long post, however, I am rather passionate about the subject and can be long winded.
Tom
Our club runs a really tight ship and a novice stays a novice until a seasoned instructor lets them advance to the next of four levels of ability. The instructors are asked (required a maximum of 2 years) to attend a sort of certification program yearly.
No one really wants to rub fenders on their high performance street cars, so we have a rule that everyone gets a 1 free spin per event. That is defined as 90 degrees to travel. If someone spins twice, they are sent home. That is just one of many rules we have.
As with anything, there is good and bad. We use the event of the Ferrari track day in California where a Porsche GT nailed a Ferrari. The men in the Porsche died at the track and the lawsuits flew. We learned alot from the forensics of the day. Alot of things that happened early in the day would have removed the Porsche from the day. In fact, because the Porsche didn't have a third party track inspection on the car, it would have never been on the track to begin with. The more that clubs follow the rules and adhere to them, the better chance that people will be protected and we can have fewer incidents.
Sorry for the long post, however, I am rather passionate about the subject and can be long winded.
Tom
