Unintentional stockholder
- Thread starter A.J.
- Start date
I cant wait to see how well the government can run a company and compete against private businesses. Maybe they will just put a 1000% tax on non-GM vehicles?
GM = Government Motors?
GM = Government Motors?
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Ron, I fully concur with your thoughts on unions. I can only speak for this country but I am yet to see a union (in recent times, I'm not talking of the days of child labour) do anything constructive that will help increase the opportunity for more jobs. In fact what they do is limit the number of jobs available by squeezing more and more from the employer, the so called rich person who creates jobs.
I have a small business that employs over 70 good people, fortunately with as yet, with no union involvement. But I can tell you the day a union walks onto the workshop floor I will close the business and 70 people will be out of work.
I have a small business that employs over 70 good people, fortunately with as yet, with no union involvement. But I can tell you the day a union walks onto the workshop floor I will close the business and 70 people will be out of work.
I'm not a fan of unions either. I'm a third generation member in a family owned construction company. My grandfather started it out as a union business. Two key stories I remember hearing that ended it was when the workers were throwing (now lowering) scaffolding bucks down into a concrete tank. It's not their equipment, why should they care right? The other was a time when we had a large Lima crane on site and the union said that as long as the operator was there, we had to employ an oiler there to maintain the crane should the need arise. My father was sent out to buy a can of Turtle car wax, then the oiler was instructed to strart at the front bumper and wax the machine until he reached the rear. When he finished, he was to go back to the front and start over again. As long as he was getting paid, he was by god going to work. My grandparents had very little when they were young, and worked their a$$ off to get where they were, and you simply didn't tell him that someone was going to get paid to do nothing. I get put down constantly by union members simply because I choose not to enter the union. What business is it of theirs anyway. Now, the unions want Obama to write into gov't construction contracts laws that make non-union contractors pay unions dues for their members even though their not in the union. I believe that's called extorsion, isn't it. I think I had better stop now.
Ron Earp
Admin
North Carolina doesn't have a lot of union activity. But recently the unions have been trying to make inroads into the state's large economic engines. One such place they have been fighting is in the hog / pork industry.
They have approached the plants that do the processing and for the most part were turned away with very little interest. Anonymous votes among plant workers resulted in not enough of a majority to get the unions in place. Now an anonymous vote is the way things should be voted in a democratic society, right?
Well, not according to union management. They lobbied heavily for a non-anonymous vote in which dissenting voters, that is ones that didn't want the union, could be identified.
In the end they didn't win in the instance I'm writing about. The most recent vote turned them away again. According to the short news brief North Carolina has the lowest number of unionized workers in the nation. Hope is stays that way.
In vote, Smithfield plant in N.C. rejects union | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com
Pete, like you I run a small company but it is smaller than yours. We've got 11 full time employees and about 40 part time contractors that are independent but are directed by us for around 25% of their time. Of course we don't have any union activities. We pay our folks well, have a lot of good people working for us, but if they don't like the deal they are getting they can go work somewhere else. NC is a right to work state. If they all decided to band together, form a union and go on strike I think we'd have to replace them with new folks. Extortion isn't a way to negotiate.
They have approached the plants that do the processing and for the most part were turned away with very little interest. Anonymous votes among plant workers resulted in not enough of a majority to get the unions in place. Now an anonymous vote is the way things should be voted in a democratic society, right?
Well, not according to union management. They lobbied heavily for a non-anonymous vote in which dissenting voters, that is ones that didn't want the union, could be identified.
In the end they didn't win in the instance I'm writing about. The most recent vote turned them away again. According to the short news brief North Carolina has the lowest number of unionized workers in the nation. Hope is stays that way.
In vote, Smithfield plant in N.C. rejects union | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com
Pete, like you I run a small company but it is smaller than yours. We've got 11 full time employees and about 40 part time contractors that are independent but are directed by us for around 25% of their time. Of course we don't have any union activities. We pay our folks well, have a lot of good people working for us, but if they don't like the deal they are getting they can go work somewhere else. NC is a right to work state. If they all decided to band together, form a union and go on strike I think we'd have to replace them with new folks. Extortion isn't a way to negotiate.
Well I guess that I shouldnt be surprised that the dissenting opinions on unions here come from the people that run their own companies. Its easy to say that your grandfather that owned the business before you told you how terrible the unions are.
Of course family would never tell half the truth. And you said it all when you said if they dont like it they can go somewhere else, hmmmm dont like your government; go some where else. But dont come to canada!
Of course family would never tell half the truth. And you said it all when you said if they dont like it they can go somewhere else, hmmmm dont like your government; go some where else. But dont come to canada!
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Ron, I started business life as a commission only salesman, no salary, no holiday pay, no retirement plan, no medical benefits. I got paid for only what I produced.
I think that experience gave me the balls to have a go at my own business without worrying about the downside to much.
Paying people for doing nothing is a great incentive for them to do nothing. In my country it is called unemployment benefits. I think you call it welfare.
I think that experience gave me the balls to have a go at my own business without worrying about the downside to much.
Paying people for doing nothing is a great incentive for them to do nothing. In my country it is called unemployment benefits. I think you call it welfare.
Agreed and understood - the vast bulk of reasons that gave Unions validity in the first place no longer exist. We generally have safe working conditions (OSHA and state agencies), employment laws protective towards the employee (ADA, ADEA, COBRA, ERISA, etc.), minimum wage laws for the bottom rung of workers, reasonable expectations around hours and limitations upon eligibility (no child labor). So, yes, about all that a union does now is extract a higher price for labor by way of collective bargaining than would otherwise be in place in a completely free market. The Unions admit as much - see the website excerpt above for example.
However, one thing unions have done which is a valid undertaking is to help lessen the gap between the highest paid workers (C-suite/VP) and the lowest than would otherwise happen w/o union presence. Currently the gap is unreasonably large, but you can be sure it would be even larger without union presence. You can bet your bottom dollar that senior management would elect to pay minimum wage for the bottom rung of workers (rather than a somewhat higher union wage) if it allowed them to have bigger bonuses and declare larger dividends (which in turn generally drive the stock price up and increase senior management stock compensation).
I just don't understand public company CEO's who actually think they're worth 100+ times the wage of the rank and file. It just ain't so.
However, one thing unions have done which is a valid undertaking is to help lessen the gap between the highest paid workers (C-suite/VP) and the lowest than would otherwise happen w/o union presence. Currently the gap is unreasonably large, but you can be sure it would be even larger without union presence. You can bet your bottom dollar that senior management would elect to pay minimum wage for the bottom rung of workers (rather than a somewhat higher union wage) if it allowed them to have bigger bonuses and declare larger dividends (which in turn generally drive the stock price up and increase senior management stock compensation).
I just don't understand public company CEO's who actually think they're worth 100+ times the wage of the rank and file. It just ain't so.
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
I dont own a business, however had a run in with top Union official a number of years ago.
I was managing a company in Zimbabwe that employed about 30 people.
Our wages were about twice the norm and we offered other incentives like pension and medical (un heard off in the hourly paid at the time)
Union man (happened to be running for chief post and I recognised him from his picture in the papers) called in and advised he needed to talk to the employees as they must join the Union. (Non joining was not an option) I soid that was fine and set up a time of 16:10 outside the front door of the building.
He duly arrived to find a closed shop as we shut at 4 that day and none of the employees decided to wait the extra 10 minutes
He stormed into my office and threated me.
I suggested he left and that if he did not I would call the police - he then advised he already had the police on his payroll and they would back him. I said file but I am locking up and you will be locked in overnight. He left.
He made another 2 appointments and both times not a single staff member waited for his speach - each time I was threatened again. He also said that the company by law had to let him use the premises and equpment for his business - I advised him otherwise.
This prompted my departure from the company and Zimbabwe.
So yes I think Unions had their place (100 years ago to stop child labour etc.) but now it is just a form of Mafia - the same holds true with the unions I have come across in the UK. Look at the strikes by the fire service a couple of years ago wanting to double the pay of the firemen. They are great people but for between 3 and 4 days a week work wanted about double the UK average wage! - and most of the firemen ran 2nd jobs as builders etc in the other 3- 4 days a week - Extortion
I believe in paying going wages - if someone is worthwhile their wage rises if not it maintains the going rate. If they move elsewhere so be it. Recruitment is not fun but can be done.
That said I also believe the CEO 100 times standard wage salary is WRONG. No body is worth that in a public company!
Now for people like Ron and Pete you guys took the gamble and made it work - your company your rules and you deserve to profit from the company's fortunes - until you sell out then everyone becomes hired staff and should be at the going rate.
So now my card is probably marked by the Unions who will pay me a visit! I'll let you know the outcome
Ian
I was managing a company in Zimbabwe that employed about 30 people.
Our wages were about twice the norm and we offered other incentives like pension and medical (un heard off in the hourly paid at the time)
Union man (happened to be running for chief post and I recognised him from his picture in the papers) called in and advised he needed to talk to the employees as they must join the Union. (Non joining was not an option) I soid that was fine and set up a time of 16:10 outside the front door of the building.
He duly arrived to find a closed shop as we shut at 4 that day and none of the employees decided to wait the extra 10 minutes
He stormed into my office and threated me.
I suggested he left and that if he did not I would call the police - he then advised he already had the police on his payroll and they would back him. I said file but I am locking up and you will be locked in overnight. He left.
He made another 2 appointments and both times not a single staff member waited for his speach - each time I was threatened again. He also said that the company by law had to let him use the premises and equpment for his business - I advised him otherwise.
This prompted my departure from the company and Zimbabwe.
So yes I think Unions had their place (100 years ago to stop child labour etc.) but now it is just a form of Mafia - the same holds true with the unions I have come across in the UK. Look at the strikes by the fire service a couple of years ago wanting to double the pay of the firemen. They are great people but for between 3 and 4 days a week work wanted about double the UK average wage! - and most of the firemen ran 2nd jobs as builders etc in the other 3- 4 days a week - Extortion
I believe in paying going wages - if someone is worthwhile their wage rises if not it maintains the going rate. If they move elsewhere so be it. Recruitment is not fun but can be done.
That said I also believe the CEO 100 times standard wage salary is WRONG. No body is worth that in a public company!
Now for people like Ron and Pete you guys took the gamble and made it work - your company your rules and you deserve to profit from the company's fortunes - until you sell out then everyone becomes hired staff and should be at the going rate.
So now my card is probably marked by the Unions who will pay me a visit! I'll let you know the outcome
Ian