Weber MAX CFMs (Weber Carbs and Max Air Flow)

I'd agree with Russ here - the webers flow more efficiently than a 4 barrel on a common plenum all other things being equal, however, as has been pointed out the largest sizes run out of total flow capacity at high (500+) hp. One reason the webers work so efficiently on a single port (actually, two ports/cylinders per carb, one for each throat) is that the atomized fuel doesn't hit a bunch of hard turns and side walls and condense, staying more uniformly atomized in the right AF ratio. If you think about what happens to the atomized fuel coming out the bottom of a Holley as it flows directly downwards and then hits the bottom of the plenum chamber it partially condenses on impact, and does this again as it makes the twisty turns on the way to the cylinder. The IDF/IDA manifolds typically do a pretty good job of minimizing this partial condensing.

Of course, the technical papers on this topic talk about the re-evaporation of the condensed fuel on the wall due to the rapid flow of air past it, so, in the end the fuel does eventually make it's way into the cylinder, however, it's just not quite as precisely metered as in an IDF/IDA set up.
 
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Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
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Lifetime Supporter
Re: Weber MAX CFMs

The reversion pulse continues to pull fuel from the metering system ( The aux/booster venturi works with flow in the opposite direction too ), that fuel is then drawn back ito the engine when normal flow restarts. The only way fuel can be forced back into the bowl via the main system is when an inlet runner explosion or backfire takes place to create pressure at that point, fairly hard to do on a weber since there is no choke butterfly. Any flow thru a venturi creates a lower pressure which is what draws the fuel from the bowl.

Jac - I fully understand what you're talking about - but I'm not so sure that the reversion cloud you're talking about can be attributed to much more than fuel laden air left in the intake tract below the boosters that is pushed back up through the carb...
I prefer to believe much of what this article says;

Welcome to Rennsport Systems, Porsche Performance Products for the 21st Century
........ Other performance-enhancing options for Weber-equipped cars are the tall, auxiliary venturis developed for the 906 engine. These really enhance the metering signal "seen" by the main circuit to sharpen the throttle response when using slightly-too-large main venturis for maximum power. The tall manifolds used on the 906 and 911R were developed to help contain the reversion in the intake tract from using camshafts with lots of valve overlap. Reversion causes a ‘fuel cloud’ to form over the individual intake trumpets that plays havoc with fuel mixture at higher RPM’s. Spacing the carburetor farther away from the intake valve with taller intake manifolds, increases torque and throttle response, especially with racing-sized venturis.

From my vantage point - When drawing the fuel laden air (from the reversion cloud) back through the carburetor, the air is effectively double-carbureted and exceptionally rich...

If you look at the fuel and airflow characteristics of a typical carb, you'll see that generally speaking, the booster or secondary venturi will not create the low pressure within the booster when the airflow is reversed. Instead, it acts as a funnel to gather that air-flow and force the fuel back through the emulsion system and back into the float bowl... This is what I was talking about when I said that the reversion stops the process of carburetion..

drawing2.gif


Granted this picture above doesn't show the emulsion system that's in literally every carb, but it does illustrate the basic fuel and airflow..
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
Some time ago we raced a 366 Clevor (Windsor with cleveland heads) and found that we were running out of air using 48 IDAs To overcome this we fabricated a 25mm thick plenum for each bank of the engine. The problem was overcome imediately with very little expense. We sort of had the best of both worlds in that we gained extra air through the plenum but had most of the advantage of an isolated runner for better torque. At the time we only played arround slightly with the depth of of orifice between the carb face and the plenum but from memory it was about 50% of the plenum depth. On the dyno it lifted us from 530 to 550 at 6800 revs. The engine was used in a jet boat and the peak we were aiming for was at 6800. We played with various other combinations : four barrels, tunnel rams etc , and eventually ended up with fuel injection. The best thing to do with an isolated runner sytem is to through away the venturi and tune the intake properly and you can only do this with fuel injection. If you look at the cost of IDAs today it is probably on a par with the cost of a IR fuel injecgtion system but nowhere near as tuneable. Unless you really like the nostalgic look of IDAs why would you go there ?
 
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Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Weber MAX CFMs

size is correct in both cases and initial setup is correct) on any level except cost of ownership. Initial cost and cost to tune, etc...

You speaking about IR EFI systems or Webers? IR EFI systems are another ball of wax.

I think you'll find if Webers then the 4bbl can "beat" them, depending on what you want. Seems the last time a reasonable comparison took place on the dyno with the Weber vs. 4bbl the Webers produced more mid-range torque up to about 4.5k and then the 4bbl produced more hp from there until redline. Clearly a lot of variables in such a test.

In the end if you want webers I bet you want them for the look first, which is impressive. If you tend toward the 4bbl you probably are after simplicity and ease of use.
 
Re: Weber MAX CFMs

You speaking about IR EFI systems or Webers? IR EFI systems are another ball of wax.

I think you'll find if Webers then the 4bbl can "beat" them, depending on what you want. Seems the last time a reasonable comparison took place on the dyno with the Weber vs. 4bbl the Webers produced more mid-range torque up to about 4.5k and then the 4bbl produced more hp from there until redline. Clearly a lot of variables in such a test.

In the end if you want webers I bet you want them for the look first, which is impressive. If you tend toward the 4bbl you probably are after simplicity and ease of use.

Ron,

I was lumping together plenum based efi systems (not tuned port efi or IR based efi) and 4 barrel carburetors. In general a well tuned Weber setup should beat both, assuming you have enough air at the top end.

I'll have to try and demonstrate this statement later this year or early next year with the results from my build. Hopefully Berg will make some carbs in Novemeber for me, or I'll find a 58 DCOE carb.

In the end I want Webers for the look and I also think they are the best choice for power if you do do not want efi.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Weber MAX CFMs

Ron,

In general a well tuned Weber setup should beat both, assuming you have enough air at the top end.

I'll have to try and demonstrate this statement later this year or early next year with the results from my build. Hopefully Berg will make some carbs in Novemeber for me, or I'll find a 58 DCOE carb.

I respectfully disagree and would love to have a "showdown" but there are too many variables involved that neither "side" would consider it fair. I'll be putting together another engine early next year but comparisons between the two would be about impossible on a level ground.

A complicated problem for sure. Simply the nature of putting the webers on in place of a 4 bbl do the webers a disservice since a cam for the 4bbl isn't well suited for the webers, and vice versa. So that is one thing changed in the system already.

Nonetheless, I think you'll avoid the limitations of the 48mm webers by going to larger carbs. Even on 350 inch motors the 48s can become a problem if you want turn over 6600 RPM or so. Go serious on the displacement and you'll reach the limitation fairly quickly.

R
 
I respectfully disagree and would love to have a "showdown" but there are too many variables involved that neither "side" would consider it fair. I'll be putting together another engine early next year but comparisons between the two would be about impossible on a level ground.

A complicated problem for sure. Simply the nature of putting the webers on in place of a 4 bbl do the webers a disservice since a cam for the 4bbl isn't well suited for the webers, and vice versa. So that is one thing changed in the system already.

Nonetheless, I think you'll avoid the limitations of the 48mm webers by going to larger carbs. Even on 350 inch motors the 48s can become a problem if you want turn over 6600 RPM or so. Go serious on the displacement and you'll reach the limitation fairly quickly.

R

Ron,

I think you are right in the idea that it is a pretty difficult (and expensive) comparision to make in a way that would really prove "what is what" and where each system has its sweet spot. I am assuming in my above statement that you would change the cam with a weber installation, so a comparison is not as trivial as changing out carburation and tuning

The several dyno comparisons I have seen shows what pretty much everyone has indicated regarding running out of air at high power and rpms on a V8.

I have seen one dyno chart in a David Vizard book that shows a ford 427 stroked to 472 maxing out at over 700Hp using the Berg 58mm carbs. :) This is where I started to get the idea that it may be worth a try, because in general if I can get the high HP and tune well, I should still get good to reasonable drivability. I hope to end up in the over 600Hp to 650 HP range with my stroked FE engine. The heads are probably flowing over 350CFMs now and I think I'll end up at about 375CFm or so. I think the biggest challenge will be finding the right cam right off the bat. I think if I have to test several cams, the cost will go nuclear.

It's going to be a while before I get it put together (The Berg's are supposed to be available in Nov.) but I will post progress reports for those that are interested.
 
OK, this has been very enlightening and highly interesting. So to translate this great information, I should destroke my engine from 427 to say 383, rev limit it to 6500, dial it in to about 500 - 550 hp and enjoy the 48 ida's. I love the webbers and have had nothing negative about them and they just look so exotic. A must for a 40. imho.
 
Good to see someone who has actually built some good power with the 48s. So Mr. Pritchett, do you have numbers for what you got outta the 48s? How is the curve? Easily drivable?
 
Well crash, I have learned by sad experience that it is possible to have too much power / torque. I have not had the opportunity to have much done to look at the end result of the 427 before it broke just too many things then itself. IMHO I believe these cars should run very well at the track with 500 hp and not so much torque. This experiment in large hp/torque has been very expensive. This weekend I pulled out the 427 mbf to destroke it, recam it, better oiling, and hopefully it will be more reliable. Still love the webbers.
 
Hi all. Great discussion. :thumbsup:

I know of a racing engine over here that is using 3 x 48s, getting 450hp+ and is VERY drivable . It's an all-iron Chrysler six cylinder 265ci motor. (Bored out to around 275ci). For some reason I'm even thinking the carbs are 45s!! ...I'll have to check.

I'm not entirely sure of the revs it attains max power at, but the motor is raced between 3000 - 6500 ( and to a little higher than 7000 when needed) and has actually been developed for torque not peak HP, ....as all race engines should be of course. (55s are around and were too big)/ The torque curve is amazing. Strong and flat-ish!

These aren't bullshit numbers. The guy bought a second hand dyno many moons ago and for a while had nothing better to do than tickle his heads etc a little bit, or try one thing or another every time he did a pull-down. lol ...The worse figures we can verify on a better calibrated/compensated dyno is a deficit of around 15hp and at the time we know the engine was off tune.

I'm no expert , just so you know, and to prove it I'll ask this... Doesn't volumetric efficiency have a bearing on how effective CFM ratings are too??

If 3 x 48s can get you close to 450hp (possibly more) than a full set of four on a V8 should be capable of at least 600hp. I'd guess more. This motor has nothing wallet draining on it , but common sense expenses. Just roller cam and associated mods and things like that. The rest is hours spent on it playing.

GT40s rock, btw. :)
 
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I know of a racing engine over here that is using 3 x 48s, getting 450hp+ and is VERY drivable . It's an all-iron Chrysler six cylinder 265ci motor. (Bored out to around 275ci). For some reason I'm even thinking the carbs are 45s!! ...I'll have to check.
3 x 45s!

So given a properly massaged input tract those babies can flow some pretty decent neddies. Who needs a 4 bbl? :thumbsup:
 
E49 Charger is throat/barrel per cyl in std form. This guy doesnt state which manifold his mate is using though. Block will be getting thin in the cyl walls @ 275ci , they are bad enough @ std 265.
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Well my guess if he is using 3 barrels of Weber on a 6 Cylinder Engine that might be a give a way on what the manifold direction might be ;)

Cram a Holley on it and see what it does...

Sandy
 
Well my guess if he is using 3 barrels of Weber on a 6 Cylinder Engine that might be a give a way on what the manifold direction might be ;)

Cram a Holley on it and see what it does...

Sandy

Distribution problems on an inline, plus these things have a low hood profile & that old canadian truck motor is a tall beast. Nothings easy, but when they are running right they go like the proverbial cut cat! Fastest one ever was Leonard/Sprague car from NZ that blew Allan Moffats GTHO Falcon 351 into the weeds way back in the mid 70's @ Wigram Airforce Base circuit which was one of if not the fastest circuit in NZ ( MPH wise ). Just to prove the GTHO was no slug after that Moffat then fitted a set of slicks & proceeded to decimate all NZ & Aust had on offer in the way of Sport Sedans at the meeting. That along with one other race @ Wigram would have to be some of the best saloon racing I have ever witnessed. The 'howl' from that E49 6 pack was something else.
 
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