Mercedes Power?

CliffBeer · 06-18-06, 07:40 AM

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a Mercedes 5.0 engine in a GT40... I have a Merceds 5.0ltr engine which is a very sweet running four cam engine, all aluminum, 4valve/cyl, compact, puts out 410hp/400ft/lbs at about 6,000, 50lbs lighter than SBF. With a custom inlet manifold, 48 Webers, appropriate cams and exhaust I suspect that 450/450 is about right. Crazy idea?

JohnC · 06-18-06, 09:27 AM

That looks like a really clean motor. I was toying with putting a 4.0l all aluminum Lexus motor in a '40, however in NA trim the Lexus lumps are only good for about 300-325 FWHP without changing cams. I think another litre of displacement would make for one very nice setup. You'll need to check the motor's dimensions to see how much different they are from the SBF, and how much trouble it will be to shoehorn it in. The DOHC configuration is always going to be taller and wider than the SBF cam-in-block design. Headers will be a real challenge, too, of course.....

Good luck!

John

Pat Buckley · 06-18-06, 01:45 PM

If being different is important to you and you just love a real challenge, I suppose that would be totally cool.

Ian Anderson · 06-18-06, 04:49 PM

It's been done already

a Gulf (ish) coloured car from Germany came to Le Mans classic 2 years ago sporting a Merc engine

I have pictures of it all around the circuit as it was in front of Charles Herd's car with me as passenger but I did not get any shots of the engine. Likewise I did not get the name of the driver.

I will hopefully get the name in 3 week's time when we revisit the classis - no doubt my pictures will interest him

Ian

CliffBeer · 06-18-06, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2124

If being different is important to you and you just love a real challenge, I suppose that would be totally cool.

Hi Pat, well, the goal isn't really to be different or difficult, rather, see if there's a better mouse trap delivering great HP, lighter weight, and smoother operation than a SBF of equiv displacement. The Merc engine is a much more developed engine putting out materially greater specific output per pound and per cubic inch than a 302 Ford...

CliffBeer · 06-18-06, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanAnderson

It's been done already

a Gulf (ish) coloured car from Germany came to Le Mans classic 2 years ago sporting a Merc engine

I have pictures of it all around the circuit as it was in front of Charles Herd's car with me as passenger but I did not get any shots of the engine. Likewise I did not get the name of the driver.

I will hopefully get the name in 3 week's time when we revisit the classis - no doubt my pictures will interest him

Ian

Hi Ian, ah darn, just when I thought I had an original idea....

Certainly would be interesting to see a few pics and get the name of the owner/builder to compare notes. Do you happen to know if the engine was the 5.0ltr quad cam version? This engine originally came in the '91 - '98 US S-class 500 series cars and it's pretty bullet proof.

Thanks for the information. Hope you can snap a few pics in a few weeks and share with all here.

Pat Buckley · 06-18-06, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffBeer

Hi Pat, well, the goal isn't really to be different or difficult, rather, see if there's a better mouse trap delivering great HP, lighter weight, and smoother operation than a SBF of equiv displacement. The Merc engine is a much more developed engine putting out materially greater specific output per pound and per cubic inch than a 302 Ford...

Hi Cliff,

I can appreciate that - but my thoughts are that there are indeed better mouse traps out there.....for example, for a little less money one can purchase an E55 that does everything well.....but as long as I am going to live with a car that is as barbaric as a GT40 is, the engine type they came with the car originally is part of what makes it a neat experience. Of course that is just my opinion.

Good luck with it!

Pat

jimbo · 06-22-06, 10:40 PM

I do not think you would get any more power with Webers than you could get by remapping the Bosch EFI which is a very sophisticated system. Mercedes engines are complex and put out a lot of power for their weight and displacement. There are probably AMG bits for it that would up the output. Rather than try to emulate the Ford engine (Webers etc) you would be better off making it the hottest MB engine you could, which means working inside their technology.

Pagani uses Mercedes engines, don't they? and they go pretty fast.

And if you really want to get crazy, I have a spare 1971 6.3 MB M100 engine sitting around with nothing to do. Karl Middelhauve built one of those to over 600hp and ferocious torque a year or two ago.

CliffBeer · 06-23-06, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo

I do not think you would get any more power with Webers than you could get by remapping the Bosch EFI which is a very sophisticated system. Mercedes engines are complex and put out a lot of power for their weight and displacement. There are probably AMG bits for it that would up the output. Rather than try to emulate the Ford engine (Webers etc) you would be better off making it the hottest MB engine you could, which means working inside their technology.

Pagani uses Mercedes engines, don't they? and they go pretty fast.

And if you really want to get crazy, I have a spare 1971 6.3 MB M100 engine sitting around with nothing to do. Karl Middelhauve built one of those to over 600hp and ferocious torque a year or two ago.

Hi, yes, you may be right that sticking with the EFI and remapping the ignition is likely to produce equivalent hp to the webers. Plus, installation of webers will absolutely require reground cams and who knows what the best ramp/profile would be for those. Was really only thinking of the webers for visual appearances sake. Will need to think on it a bit more!

The 6.3 is certainly an impressive beast! Now that would be the engine to put some webers on! Thanks!

DBLDREW · 06-23-06, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffBeer

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a Mercedes 5.0 engine in a GT40... I have a Merceds 5.0ltr engine which is a very sweet running four cam engine, all aluminum, 4valve/cyl, compact, puts out 410hp/400ft/lbs at about 6,000, 50lbs lighter than SBF. With a custom inlet manifold, 48 Webers, appropriate cams and exhaust I suspect that 450/450 is about right. Crazy idea?

Just wondering where you are getting the weight of the 302? If you are using the stock 302 and basing the weight that ford has published you have to remember that it came with iron heads. So if you went with an aftermarket aluminum head you will drop 40-45 pounds, basically nullifying your weight savings going with the Mercedes. Also making 400-500hp out of a sbf isn’t really that hard.

Ron Earp · 06-23-06, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBLDREW

Just wondering where you are getting the weight of the 302? If you are using the stock 302 and basing the weight that ford has published you have to remember that it came with iron heads. So if you went with an aftermarket aluminum head you will drop 40-45 pounds, basically nullifying your weight savings going with the Mercedes. Also making 400-500hp out of a sbf isn’t really that hard.

I was thinking the same thing. Throw in an aluminum Ford SB and it'll be lighter than the MB engine. And it can go out to 7L, actually more with the Dart block, I think it was over 7.5L.

My 5.5L Ford SB was setup for 535hp, but it won't be as smooth as a MB engine. But the car won't be "smooth" either.

Hard to beat a cam in block pushrod design for compactness and weight (using modern pieces). Some awesome modern examples out there nowadays too - new Z06 motor, DCM (MB hey!) engines with the Hemi marketing BS, and good old Toyota has contructed one to play in NASCAR although no plans have been announced for production cars.

Ron

06-24-06, 12:26 AM

I think the Mercedes 5.0 L engine is an awesome idea. Although I'm not sure it is a great match in a GT40. I took out a 4 cam, 32 valve 4L V8 Lexus engine from my Saker and was reluctant to replace it with a pushrod, 16 valve LS1 but it will be much easier to get power out of then any Mercedes or Lexus engine. The parts support is really just not there and the cost is usually much more as well since there are only a small number of places that make performance parts for these engines. But it is a great idea to get a decent amount of power from a rare and cool package.

jimbo · 07-04-06, 10:29 PM

I don't think an M100 engine would fit in a GT40...although it can't be a whole lot different than a BBF 427 engine was, and they fit....

Out of the box, the M100 had 4 bolt mains, a forged crank, and essentially a bulletproof bottom end. Karl the German looney tuner in PA has built them to ferocious power with Vortech blowers, EFI, etc. I think the length of the cam chain may limit rpms, but the performance he has gotten from these engines in Mercedes 600 limos is amazing. They will smoke the tires. One of his cars was fitted with a 5 speed ZF manual, since it would cook the MB automatic box's clutches. His website is www.MBGrand600.com or something like that.

They are not light engines, though. The later MB V8s with aluminum block, EFI, and AMG parts available would be a better choice. None of this stuff is cheap. The V8 motor was always the cheapest part of the GT40 anyway. For bang/buck, plus low weight, an aluminum SBF is the best, if you ask me.

CliffBeer · 07-05-06, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo

I don't think an M100 engine would fit in a GT40...although it can't be a whole lot different than a BBF 427 engine was, and they fit....

Out of the box, the M100 had 4 bolt mains, a forged crank, and essentially a bulletproof bottom end. Karl the German looney tuner in PA has built them to ferocious power with Vortech blowers, EFI, etc. I think the length of the cam chain may limit rpms, but the performance he has gotten from these engines in Mercedes 600 limos is amazing. They will smoke the tires. One of his cars was fitted with a 5 speed ZF manual, since it would cook the MB automatic box's clutches. His website is www.MBGrand600.com or something like that.

They are not light engines, though. The later MB V8s with aluminum block, EFI, and AMG parts available would be a better choice. None of this stuff is cheap. The V8 motor was always the cheapest part of the GT40 anyway. For bang/buck, plus low weight, an aluminum SBF is the best, if you ask me.

Hi Jimbo "the later MV V8 with aluminum block and EFI" is exactly what was proposed here - take a look above. And, yes, you're right, with the AMG bits added on this is a pretty light engine with good power to weight. Even with the basic 4V heads, twin cams and stock everything else the modern Merc V8 is a great engine with materially higher specific output per lb than SBF.

Ron Earp · 07-05-06, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffBeer

Even with the basic 4V heads, twin cams and stock everything else the modern Merc V8 is a great engine with materially higher specific output per lb than SBF.

Stock for stock, yes. But clearly either engine can be built to whatever power level you desire. You wouldn't plan on putting a stock Merc engine in would you? Don't know of anyone doing a SBF stock either.

If you go all aluminum on the SBF you'll have a really light, really small, and potentially very powerful motor. Ditto on a Chevy LS series motor.

R