Which EMS and Tuner (are you using)?

[JohnC]

EMS's (and their tuners) are always a hot topic on other forums, so I thought it might be interesting to find out what/who the membership here is using.

Since tuners live and die by their reputations, if you've had a bad experience with someone, perhaps it would be best not to expose any names. If inquiring minds really want to know, I suppose that's what the private message function is for. Conversely, if you've had a great experience with a certain tuner, let's hear about it, as long as you're not receiving sponsorship, or other goodies that might influence your opinion .

Here's my last experience: for my Supra project I used an AEM EMS (10 injector + 5 ignition outputs). After paying a factory trained tuner, and ruining one $10K motor, I now tune this EMS myself with the email advice/assistance of 1-2 other knowledgeable users. The car runs very well, and most people who ride in it cannot detect that it does not have an OEM EMS - the driveability is that good.

For my current V12 project, I'm leaning toward the M800 MoTeC. AFAIK, it's the only commonly available, single box that can do a crank triggered COP/CNP V12 application (12 injectors + 12 coils) without resorting to waste spark.

Since MoTeC lock down their boxes to keep users from frying their motors, I'm open to suggestions/recommendations for good MoTeC tuners in the USA.

[Lynn]

JohnC

Stepping up onto soapbox:

I have somewhat of a HO against Motec. Not because of their quality; there stuff is good. It's just not that damned good! Or, maybe I should say it's not that damned much better to justify their costs. I would beg to differ about the reason they keep their boxes locked down. IMHO, it is to keep the owner/operator in the dark and to create a ecosystem around their product to justify their over the top pricing, which helps them maintain their mystique and justify, if only in their own minds, their elitist attitudes.

As a computer engineer, I understand the componentry that goes into these systems (they are, after all, just multiinput strobing computers which run a simple eprom code that controls outputs based on a lookup table indexed by the present state of the inuts and, conditionally, on some number of previously saved states (and damned few of these I'd wager.) Electromotive ostensibly claims to have an algorithm which controls this, but if you bang on them hard enough, you'll find that, while there is an algorithm to hash an index based on input groups, there is still a look up table at the heart of it. (This is the best explanation that I could get out of them. If someone knows better, please edify me, seriously!)

Bottom line, MOTEC could produce a non annodized version of the EMS for the everyday man (those of us with out deep pocket sponsors) with a reasonable price tag and still maintain their "exclusive" lines and pay the MOTEC Men to run around race tracks, very self-importantly, as well as support the whole MOTEC racing economy. But noooooooo! That will never happen.

Someday someone will produce a system with a broad spectrum of inputs, controlability and reliability with a margin that descends out of the ionosphere. Then MOTEC will have to either get smart or go the way of midsized computers of the 70s and 80s like Prime, Digital, DEC, and a number of others who just couldn't face the realities that they could no longer be little IBMs and laugh and point at PCs and UNIX boxes. Saying, "Aren't they quaint, please pass the caviar."

Stepping down off of soapbox,
Lynn

[Ian Anderson]

People over on the V8 forum are using Megasquirt
http://www.megasquirt.info/

Has anyone here got any info on it good or bad?

The prices I have seen seem very reasonable

Thanks
Ian

[Ron Earp]

Can I get an Amen for brother Lynn? Just kidding, I can't say I'm a Motec fan to be honest.

It is called Megasquirt - it is open source, and pretty much does anything these days with the hacks and patches available. But, Lynn, I know you and many others are aware about Megasquirt.

I'm with you on the Motec, Over Rated, Over Priced, and (for once the yank WWII folks can say it) - Over There, since Motec is Australian. Their US prices are fantastically high, for locked boxes, and not feature packed by any stretch of the imagination. Cool stuff, but really out of line on price points for the US market. I think for folks that are interested you'd be MUCH better off to get a Aussie buddy from the forum to get you a box and post it over.

There is a add-on for MegaSquirt to do V12 and similar engines without wasted spark, pretty sure. Just saw it recently in GRMS. Certainly on this forum you could find out in no time:

MegaSquirt EFI :: Index

And there are other MegaSquirt forums if I am not mistaken.

It'll be on my next injected race car for sure.

Ron

[DaveWharran]

I've used Haltech's on several vehicles since the early 90's with good results and reliability.

Have an E6K on the GT. It is somewhat limited when doing DFI along with the EFI. I'm using their Hall switch with 4 magnets placed in the flywheel. Nothing needed on front of the engine or distributor for the ignition. Wasted spark and batch fire work fine for my use.

Haltech has new models out since I purchased the E6K around 2000. I'm sure they have more bells, whistles, and flexibility.

Haltech prices were much more reasonable than Motec's.

[Peter D]

It might be worth a look at the Autronic web-site :

Autronic - Electronic fuel injection systems - Main Page

They have a new ECU (the SM4) which will run a 16-cyl & 12-cyl engines up to 15,000rpm, & an 8-cyl up to 16,000rpm !! It also has launch control, flat-shift & a host of other goodies !

Apart from being totally open (no MoTec lock-downs at all), being way cheaper than MoTec, they also offer their "Autotune" software as part of the standard package. This turns the nightmare of tuning into a no-brainer - all done automatically in 20 mins on the dyno & no tuning expert required ! The following is an extract from their web-site :

-----------------------------

""The Autotune ™ will tune the engine with no input from the operator. The closed loop air fuel ratio table is used as the target air fuel ratio table for the Autotune software. This table is setup with the required air fuel ratios at various RPM and Load points.
An Autronic exhaust gas analyzer or any other analyzer that provides a 0 to 1 volt "corrected" output, is connected to the ECU O2 I/P, this is used as the actual air fuel ratio input. As the engine is run through its various RPM and Load points the software will adjust the volumetric efficiency numbers in the main fuel table to achieve the target air fuel ratio.
At no time do you need to touch the keyboard on the Laptop.
After the tuning is complete the analyzer and 02 sensor is longer need. At any time after tuning is finished the values in the target closed loop table can be changed, and the engine will automatically run the new air fuel ratio, providing you do not make a change to the volumetric efficiency of the engine, e.g. fit a different camshaft, modify cylinder head etc...
If the engine is modified so the volumetric efficiency changes, then the analyzer and Autotune ™ software will be required again to re-tune the engine.
The Autotune ™ software is much faster then a good operator. It is not possible to manually tune as quick as the Autotune ™. A typical engine will take less than 20 minutes to fully map on an engine dyno.
The accuracy of the Autotune ™ can be setup in the software from 0.5% to 5.0% accuracy. The default value is 2% accuracy, this is generally a lot more accuracy then most tuners manual tune engines.
1. You cannot directly connect a 02 sensor to the ECU to Autotune.
2. The analyser you use must have a "corrected differential" 0 to 1 volt output. Most analyser do not have a differential output. This is required for a accurate signal.
Overview
Autronic Autotune ™ software provides rapid hands-tree tuning of Engine Air/Fuel mixtures. This automated operation frees the engine tuner, allowing total concentration on safe engine/dyno operation. On road tuning of motor vehicles is even possible.
This software uses a complex combination of math, including statistics, trigonometry and fuzzy logic to intelligently adjust the fuel delivery tables. Initial tuning is rapid usually occurring within 1 second. High precision can be achieved by allowing the Autotune ™ to operate for an extended time at each engine operating point. The operator has control over the balance between tuning speed and accuracy. Accuracy is ultimately limited by the accuracy of the attached Air/Fuel ratio measurement equipment.
The program provides visual indication of the tune status. Automatic and manual storage of tune status allows the user to monitor the tuning progress even if undertaken in several sessions. Tuning usually proceeds 2 to 5 times faster than possible by manual means. Fuel savings of as much at 90% have been reported. The considerable savings in engine life are obvious.
This program also has elaborate diagnostics facilities and allows simultaneous operation of the ECU internal data logger and external P.C data logging.
Versions are now available that have live engine operating data graphs while tuning, and a live 3D graphical presentation of the tuning process.""

----------------

I have a basic SMC Autronic in my car & couldn't be more pleased. Luckily, I have the local expert Autronic dealer & expert a few kms away (Steve Cox at Quickfit Motorsports) - he didn't even use the Autotune s/w or a dyno - just half an our in the workshop with the O2 meter & the PC, half an hour on the road, 15 mins back in the shop & VOILA - tuned to perfection !!

I'd say it was worth a look.

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

[JohnC]

Thanks to all for your responses.

The Megasquirt offers a ton of value/$, but it won't be very useful for people who want a crank triggered, fully sequential injection/ignition setup until the much rumored router board is available to expand the injector and coil outputs. This router board project has been talked about for a couple of years, but apparently the MS team have been preoccupied with other things and are spread pretty thin. As recently as last month, they were saying it'll be another 12-18 months before it's available.

Autronic build great gear, but I don't think they can do 12 injector outputs and 12 coil outputs yet. They can drive 12 injectors in batch mode and/or 12 coils in waste spark, but not both in fully sequential mode.

Haltech, IMO, are a step behind the leaders, or at least the information on their website is. They're limited on outputs as well, and have to batch fire injectors and/or drive ignitions in waste spark mode to do more than six cylinders.

There's a group of "relative" newcomers like Wolf, AEM, HKS, 034 EFI, and several others who can do 4, 5 & 6 cylinder motors well, and can do V8's by batch firing, and/or waste spark, but a V12 would be out of the question, unless their boxes were doubled up, and the engine turned into (2) six cylinder motors.

MoTeC's M800 is certainly expensive, but I think it's the only "single" box, commonly available, that'll do 12 injectors and 12 coils in fully sequential mode, and this is probably one of the reasons their prices are high. The "only" other boxes I'm aware of that can drive a V12 in fully sequential mode are the EFI Technology ECU 4.0, and/or the Magneti Marelli products, both of which make MoTeC's prices look bargain basement by comparison.

On the OEM side, whose EMS did Ford use for the GT? It must have some advanced capabilities to drive two sets of injectors?

Denso have recently released a V8 ECU that will do a set of DI injectors + a set of intake port secondary injectors, as well as full COP ignition, and I think it's fully sequential, ie 16 injector outputs, 8 coil outputs. Toyota are using this ECU for their 2007 Lexus powered by their new high end V8.
Too bad Denso lock their ECU's down tighter than MoTeC!

John

[Ron Earp]

Originally Posted by Ron Earp

I think for folks that are interested you'd be MUCH better off to get a Aussie buddy from the forum to get you a box and post it over.

There is a add-on for MegaSquirt to do V12 and similar engines without wasted spark, pretty sure. Just saw it recently in GRMS. Certainly on this forum you could find out in no time:

That is too bad that the RB isn't available yet - I thought I swore that I read and annoucement in GRMS that it was ready to play but thanks for the info. I still plan to use one on my 968 race car in a year or so, bang for buck is quite high.

On my suggestion about buying one Down Under and using in the US - I just remembered that a couple of people who got boxes for their Roaring Forties cars from Robert Logan in Australia had a hell of a time with the US dealer on support. They had to pay to use features that were supposedly enabled, etc. and the US dealer offered little help since the box was purchased out of country. Not saying that would happen if you bought one overseas, just know that folks had issues with it.

What project is the V12 going into?

Ron

[Jim c]

Ron
Autronic has a problem with ECU being mailed and not purchased through agents as well.

The man who tunes my projects tunes motec and autronic and much preferes autronic.
Value for money he recons.

You do know that the designer of motec and autronic is the same guy.
Richard Aubert
Richard and Ken Douglas were partners and parted company.

Jim

[JayPSC]

Running Megasquirt on my Volvo 760 turbo which I've converted to EDIS ignition system, £150 for a standalone EMS you can't complain. When I go throttle bodies on my RCR I think I'll go with Megasquirt II & use it to directly trigger EDIS coilpacks. So simple to tune too, I've written software that analyzes datalogs & changes the VE table to match the AFRs specified for each VE bin. The new version of Megatune also has realtime autotune, although I haven't tried it yet.
I personally wouldn't use another EMS but then I have a couple more sat in my room & I couldn't justify spending £1000 on a unit with little benefits over the MS.
Regards
Jay