Audi 012 Vs 01E

[William Grow]

I've been chasing my tail for the last couple of days with these Audi transaxles, my head is starting to hurt, and I'm left with exactly two questions:

-Does the Audi 01E and the 012 share the same bellhousing pattern? The reason I ask is because of the 1uz adapter plate shown on guerillamotive.com

-How available are the 01E transaxles in the United States? I'm currently living in Hungary and I see them for sale for about $500 used (there's currently three for sale in my area and I live in a very small town). Is this something I should "get while the gettins good" or could I find a similar priced transaxle just as easily in the United States?

Thanks guys.
-Bill

 

[Jimmy P]

Just Bill, Welcome. You're going to find a hearth of information on this site about the 01E. Use the search engine and you should get a lot of info. 01E's are a popular transaxle for the "do it your selfer's" and a good box from what I read and hear. Check Scott Dewitt's posting's and his website. www.advancedautomotion.com $500 is cheap in any country for an 01E but can it be trusted? This certainly depends on your application. Scott and many others will tell you all you need to know about your concerns. From what I'm hearing 01E's are becoming a littlle more scarce in the US so you may have better luck in Europe. Good Luck.

 

[William Grow]

The ones I find are usually from wrecked autos in the area (the roads are notoriously horrible over here, very narrow, bumpy, and fast) but I figure for the price I can pick up a couple for the price of.... (insert expensive transaxle of your choice here) I know I've seen that said on these forums before

From what you said, it looks like I better pick up a couple while I'm over here. I also have an 012 in my garage I picked up locally for about $100. I feel sorry for the movers that have to help us pack :laugh:

I also found out that David was using a 01E with the same adapter and engine combo I was planning so that's definitely a plus.

Thanks!
-Bill

 

[David]

I think they aren't 100% the same but share common bolt locations.

What Audi seem to do is have *lots* of bolt holes in their transaxles and only use some of them, this makes it easier to use different engines etc and does mean you can somewhat pick and mix which ones you want when making up adapters.

AFAICT the 01E is a little rare in the USA, mostly because most cars in the US are auto but also because Audi's themselves are far rarer and Skoda's even more so. Those that are tend to be the high performance awd versions which you don't want.

If you can get hold of one cheap in Europe and won't have to pay a fortune to get it shipped I would.

I'd also add I'd seriously consider which engine you are going to use, they 'suffer' from forcing a (relatively) high engine, with the standard pan on I've got about 1in from the bottom of the standard 1UZ-FE oil pan to the bottom of the chassis and I'm only running 3mm above the chassis with the gearbox (same as Brett with his 01X). This causes all sorts of grief with clearance to the firewall, none of which I'd have with other gearboxes. As you're building your own chassis you could get round some of those but even so you're going to have quite extreme CV angles.

IMO the 'bestest' non-specific gearbox is the G50 but they come at a price, everyone wants them. If I was to start over again wanting the 1UZ-FE in a GT40 I'd get one over the 01E.

 

[Cliff Beer]

Just Bill,

What we have a lot of here in the US of A is 016's. These were installed in a ton of 2WD Audi 5000s, and there's lots of them sitting around in wreckers yards. They're not expensive at all, maybe a few hundred dollars. If you want to put a LSD in one the LSD from a porsche 944 goes right in no problem. With a few small improvement these 016s can handle moderate horsepower SBFs quite reliably (no drop clutch burn outs....). The adapter plate for these 016s is readily available too.

One advantage you have in Europe is that you might be able to get some of the 016s with better (ie European) gear ratios. The ratio chart is attached. I believe the "3U" version was only sold in Europe, and is somewhat sought after.

Just a thought. Good luck!

 

[William Grow]

Its just the Lexus motor that was causing all the clearance problems or does the gear box contribute to that as well? I remember reading about some exhaust manifold clearance issues you had too... I really did like the 1uz from a cost standpoint (I can have the adapters made cheap, and the m90 supercharger option piqued my interest) but kind of liked the idea of the small block ford too.

There are a bunch of 016 gear boxes from Audi 100's (I believe that was the 5000 for us in the states) and I had a bored machinist make me a reinforcement plate from scrap stainless he had (free) but the language barrier is pretty detrimental when it comes to explaining why I want a certain code, and where the code is. I've got a bit of Hungarian under my belt, but this isn't exactly everyday conversation

I can't seem to attach the gear ratio chart I have for the 012 though... that's the one that got me thinking about the 6-speed. (top speed pushing 200mph) :sad:

Maybe I'll give the 016 another look.

 

[William Grow]

Edit, the chart I have is for the 01E not the 012 (too many 3 digit number codes)

I still cant get it to attach...

 

[David]

Mostly engine related as it's *wide* and high in comparison to the SBF due to the DOHC, it's not _as_ wide as some DOHC V8's but still pretty wide. In common with all other DOHC's and unlike the SBF it also has the cam gear on top of the heads which with the slope of the firewall causes problems.

It is mostly the gearbox however that has caused me grief, I'd still have a bit of an issue on the rear exhaust ports but dropping the engine an inch would make my life an 'easy' case of moving two tubes and adding two more.

I will add though that as you're planning on making your chassis you wouldn't run into the same problems, some very simple modifications and it's an easy fit but if you're planning on building in the US I wouldn't even consider the 1UZ-FE, go SBF every time.

 

[William Grow]

I do like the Ford but that Toyota, 4-cam, 32-valve, 4-liter motor with 6-bolt mains is so dang sexy!

But the Ford would be cheaper... Hence the dilemma.

That's still a long ways off though, I'd really like to finish the suspension bits before I got into the engine. I let myself get distracted by the transaxle because I found one super cheap and my budget has been suffering ever since

Since I can find all three boxes for about the same price I've got it down to:

012: gear ratios here (for near 200mph) = difficult to find. Adaptation to the 1uz = cheap/easy (gurillamotive.com). Limited slip option = spendy

016: gear ratios = difficult, plus the $700 ring and pinion set I've seen. Adapter would have to be purchased from a supplier = spendy. Limited slip option = 944 (cheap, but maybe not so easy)

01E: gear ratios = stock so cheap/easy, Adapter = cheap/easy (guerillamotive.com), limited slip = expensive

So it looks like no matter what box I choose, I'm going to have to fork over $1200 for either a limited slip unit, ring and pinion set, or an engine adapter...

(truthfully I have no idea how much something like a "kennedy"adapter for the 016 actually costs, I'm just speculating that it'll run about $1200)

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

The 1uzfe is a great little motor --go the 01E (or 012 )
better still is the G50 / 01 --these should be readily available from Germany , not too far away?

 

[David]

Its sexy on paper but is expensive to tune unless you want to turbo/supercharge it (when I'm told you can get about 570hp before needing to open/modify it).

As the saying goes, there is no substitute for cubic inches, a 302 has a full litre on the 1UZ (or 58ci)

SBF to 01X (which is I believe the same as the 01E and 012) adapter is about £300 (ask Brett, he bought one) but then you'll need the clutch etc too, adapter for the 1UZ cost me £200 but I bought two and sold one, if I'd bought only one it would have been £300

Clutch is expensive on the 1UZ-FE, there are (almost) no manuals so nothing just bolts up and you need a custom flywheel. Of course if you do that right it could cost only the same as a 'normal' SBF custom flywheel.

I really would go the G50 route if I was to do the 1UZ-FE 'again', it's expensive but IMO worth it.

It really does boil down to how much power/torque and what you want out of an engine, do you want a 4l screamer or a 5.7l torque monster?

 

[William Grow]

With the 1uz I was hoping for the M90 supercharger kit I've been oogeling over, but if I were to go SBF it'd probably be 302/351 and I'd shoot for a round number like 350hp (and I'd drive very delicately). I tend to like screamers over torque monsters though... dont know why.

The G50 is really nice, but its been my experience that anything labeled "Porsche" is going to be stinking expensive. I once compared boxes labeled 01E vs G86 and found the Porsche labeled boxes were consistently twice the price of the ones labeled "audi"... Maybe there's something internally that I'm missing that would drive up the costs? Plus there's about twenty times as many Audi boxes here versus Porsche.

Maybe I'll give the local classifieds another look, see if any G50 boxes turn up.

 

[David]

If you want the supercharger IMO you'll *need* the G50 and probably to dry sump it too.

I really wish I'd taken a later picture (or at least moved that box first!) as its not in this position any more but here we go.

That's with the engine sitting nose down by roughly 3 degrees, currently the engine is level which means the cam covers are roughly level with the rear seatbelt mounting bar/roll cage bar, to give you an idea of where that is the water outlet from the front bridge is up against the bar. That's as low as it gets and requires lots of the standard stuff removing and being custom to fit. If you're not careful you'll end up with the supercharger out the rear window!

 

[William Grow]

Hoo-Dawgies!

Well, I guess that does it for that idea As much as I'd like a good view of the supercharger belt, having one located between me and the passenger wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Besides the wife's hair might catch in the pulley...

Back to the drawing board then...

 

[David]

This is Lance's supercharged 1UZ-FE from http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/19477-lances-gt40-australia-build.html

You can see how much lower he has got the engine.

The engine bay is non-converging which means there is no problem with exhausts.

This shows just how low the engine is in comparison with the ZF gearbox.

 

[Darrin]

I do like the Ford but that Toyota, 4-cam, 32-valve, 4-liter motor with 6-bolt mains is so dang sexy!

Have you looked at the Ford Coyote or Roadrunner? Much stronger in both HP and ability to handle HP than the Toyota and it is a Ford like the original.

The chassis will need to be modified to fit it though unless you have already had this done (GT Forte and Tornado both offer this option as may others).

 

[David]

Definitely more power as stock although they come with a weight penalty (about 26Kg/57lbs).
I'm know about the ability to handle extra power though, how much will they take before you need to significantly modify them?

The (early) 1UZ-FE I'm told will take being boosted to 570hp or so before it needs any internal modifications. Over double the power is pretty impressive.

 

[Darrin]

Definitely more power as stock although they come with a weight penalty (about 26Kg/57lbs).
I'm know about the ability to handle extra power though, how much will they take before you need to significantly modify them?

The (early) 1UZ-FE I'm told will take being boosted to 570hp or so before it needs any internal modifications. Over double the power is pretty impressive.

Everything I have read shows that the Coyote was built to handle at least 650HP with most claiming 750HP to be the upper safe limit.

The Roadrunner can handle more than that of course.

 

[William Grow]

I'll have to look into the Coyote and Roadrunner, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't heard of either. But I was looking into the 302 and the 351 and there's some impressive numbers out there. With over 5 liters of displacement I imagine there's some potential to be had

I was also looking into the Audi 4.2l V8 as I heard it shares the same bellhousing pattern as the 01E/012, and I've found a site to source flywheels etc... But I haven't been able to find much aftermarket support (ITB's, cam kits, etc etc etc)

Sounds like every engine/tranny comes with it's own advantages AND drawbacks huh?

on another note:
I just missed a 6-speed in Budapest with "differential noise" for $200.

 

[David]

Audi is a nice engine but again very expensive to tune. Going to be tricky to get the later engines to run too without a very expensive ECU as they're GDI (FSI) and precious few aftermarket ECU's will handle that. It might be possible to pretty much use everything out of the car to get it running but I wouldn't as its going to be wiring hell. That means you're 'limited' to the ~300hp ABZ or similar.

It's tall and wide although rather short. Width not too much of an issue as you'd be building your own chassis but height is tricky. I think the entire engine is technically lower than the 1UZ-FE but less scope to reduce height (the 1UZ with a set of ITB's would be lower than stock for example). Again the same issue with the 01E that it sticks the engine higher than you'd really like.

Engines seem to be more expensive than the 1UZ but not too bad.

On the other hand gearbox and clutch is easy!