Should the Mclaren Drivers lose points?

Pete. · 09-13-07, 07:31 PM

Should the MClaren Drivers lose their points? Try and be objective, whether you are a Ferrari or Mclaren fan.
I personally think if it is proven that Mclaren were advantaged by having access to Ferrari data the team including the drivers should be outed for the season.
But that would effectively kill the Championship and F1 is all about money. Hence the Drivers immunity.

Keith Hardy · 09-13-07, 07:47 PM

You missed one category out Pete: "Don't Care"

Pete. · 09-13-07, 08:27 PM

Correct Keith, I reckon that category would get the maximum votes. Poor old RD has 100m reasons to care.

Bill Hara · 09-13-07, 09:48 PM

It would be interesting if the Constructors points were re-distributed to other teams as if Mclaren weren't there. Wonder what the contructor's points would look like then.

Chris Martino · 09-13-07, 11:53 PM

In discussing the $100m fine, Ron Dennis pointed out that the team has a turnover of $450m and is debt-free. He joked with Norbert Haug that Mercedes might want to go halves on the penalty. (Speed.com)

Sports = cheating, in just about every venue and most go without meaningful punishment. $$$ dictates just how far teams are willing to push the envelope and in the world of F1, it's a drop in the bucket - as Ron Dennis so elegantly points out.

Chris

Pete. · 09-14-07, 12:09 AM

I think $100m is still pretty hefty. A turnover of $450m does not mean a profit of $450m and a $100m is just about 22% of turnover. I think Mclaren will be way out of pocket.

Simon · 09-14-07, 07:21 AM

I guess we need to know more fully about the incident (if we ever will)
Did one of the McLaren guys get the stuff off his own back? was it shown to anyone else. I guess we may NEVER know the complete truth.
If the McLaren chap did it all off his own back (and of course that's what I suppose McLaren are saying) then 100M fine and loosing all your points is a harsh judgement, if they were complicit, they deserve everything they get.
If there's a way to PROVE that the McLaren drivers didn't benefit from the Ferarri stuff, they shouldn't have their points deducted.

Jerry · 09-14-07, 09:22 AM

Hi,

Maybe Ferarri should get a fine just to stop them whineing like spoilt brats every time another team does better than them.

Maclaren should be thanked for bringing enjoyment back into the sport now that Ferrarri don't have Shumacer hogging the podium!

Jerry

Richard O'Clery · 09-14-07, 11:13 AM

Can I abstain, Pete?

The offer of an indemnity was clearly a tactic to justify letting A&H finish the season, and was contrary to reason (if you exclude politics and $ from the equation - yeah, I know).

I'm not sure if the transcripts and reason for verdict have been released yet, but if there is no evidence F-intel was used on the McLarens, on the face of it you would think neither the team or drivers should be penalised.

But, and forgive me if someone has mentioned this on the F1 2007 thread, you don't have to use the IP on the car to benefit from having it in your possession. If F went down a path and decided it didn't work, M would save millions by having that information so they didn't attempt to reinvent a flawed wheel.

Only a small number of people in M need ever know if F data was used by the team to work out what not to do; far less than if something had to be engineered, developed and bolted onto the car. But, if there was evidence of the team colluding with the provider or using the data in any way, the drivers should be penalised along with the team as M's research would be more advanced than it would otherwise be.

As I understand it, the case against M using F-info hasn't been proven yet. I'm looking forward to reading the transcripts and reasons.

Immunity schimunity. How else were the drivers going to testify?

Malcolm · 09-14-07, 12:10 PM

Reading the link David Morton put up on the 2007 F1 thread, Alonso is lucky to have got away without penalty.

Rob · 09-15-07, 07:17 AM

Richard has summed this topic up quite nicely... Bottom line is, if it can be proven then there should be punishment. Starting with Mfgr, then if knowledge can be determined at the driver level, they should be penalized too. Reasoning, intellectual property has monetary value. If they stole/used it, then from a practical perspective they stole money. Money M didn't have to spend. In my corp. job we protect IP with all our might and attention.

While I agree the competition has been very enjoyable this year. I can only hope it was achieved fairly. While it is not as exciting to watch when F is sweeping the top spots, if they deserve it, then they deserve it.

Keith... if your answer is "Who cares" then I can only believe you are not an F1 enthusiast. :-)

My two cents...
(discolure statement: May not actually have a streat market value at the aforementioned face value)

Keith Hardy · 09-15-07, 02:09 PM

Rob - a former F1 enthusiast of over 50 years standing and a former employee of John Surtees in the original Honda F1 years - been there and done it.

I am ashamed of the destruction of this legacy caused by this bunch of cowboys - that's why "who cares " mate....

Rob · 09-15-07, 04:32 PM

Ahhh... got it. It's a "I'm disgusted"...."who cares".... Not really a "who cares"...kinda "who cares". Understood. Statement retracted!

Louis · 09-28-07, 02:33 PM

I have nothing against Alonso or Hamilton, but if they did gain an advantage for whatever information the team had their hands on and they knew about it, then yes, they should lose all the points of the season.

962crazy · 10-07-07, 09:22 AM

They both should lose 10-20% of their points.

Martin Weigold · 10-13-07, 04:17 PM

Alonso should as he knew about it and was the one who basically triggered the sport falling into disrepute but Hamilton knew nothing about it and so should not lose any of his - in my view.

Richard O'Clery · 10-13-07, 08:57 PM

Lets just hope 2008 is a return to normality - what ever that is. However, not being a huge fan of the current McLaren or Ferrari drivers, I must say the entertainment value has been fantastic.

domtoni · 10-15-07, 09:16 AM

I would suggest that the the M drivers loose (for 3 or 4 races where M showed dominance) two positions. That is where M started the season.

Dom

speed220mph · 10-17-07, 12:31 PM

The question is not what the McLaren "team" did, but that they were caught. Winning races is not only done on the track, but watching and learning by any means what makes other cars fast so improvements can be made to your car. I remember when we'd cover the front and rear wings on Foyt's car before pushing the car out of the garage and keep it there right up to when AJ took to the track to keep other teams from getting a good look. Part of this, of course, was to rattle the opposing teams. You could almost hear them thinking, "What are they hiding?" Similarly, I've seen more than one F1 team hang a skirt around the undertray when their car was lifted out of a gravel trap for the same reason we covered the wings. Bottom line: No, they shouldn't loose points.