302 failure - any opinions???

[Julian West]

Hey Mike!

I can assure you I'm using every ounce of will power *not* to get busy upgrading, but at this stage in the cars life I'm just looking for reliability! Rest assured upgrading will follow at a later date!!

I'll be replacing mains & big end bearings, 1 rod, cam & bearings are ok, while it's apart we'll fit new rings. A couple of exhaust valves need re-seating. Everything else is stripped for inspection & having a ride in the parts washer!

I'm gonna fit a new oil pump & wondered if it would be worth fitting a 'High Volume' pump, listed as +25% volume... anyone got any opinions??

Does anyone know Is it possible/reccomended to fit a windage tray with a GT40 sump (Armandos)??


THanks to all who have given their opinions & time so far!

 

[Randy V]

Hi volume oil pumps in small block Fords are neither needed nor desired.
They have a tendency to wear out the cam/distributor gears quickly..

 

[Howard Jones]

Ross, I don't think we disagree. I am wondering if the heavy XB303 are the standard springs that come with those heads from FMS. As far as the rev limmit of these crate motors goes. The out of the box FMS 345HP 302 crate engine AS IS is a good little engine BUT unless the very recent changes at FMS in quality control bear fruit then I would be very hesitant to rev them to 6500 RPMS.

Power production peaks at about 5500 and goes south very fast after 5800. This is my reason for making gear changes at about 5800. I do have a 3.44 diff and depending on your final the taller gearing in my car may make the power losses in ther top end of the rev range more pronounced. With a lower final of 4.0 or so I can see why you could get there faster and not notice as much difference. Whatever the difference you are the one between us that is racing his car so I will defer to your opinion.

My engine, and others of a 1999 - 2002 vintage at least, were not ballanced any different than all other production Ford 302's. The new assembly methods being used at FMS seam to be much better as far as ballance goes. Even then 6500 must be very near the safe limmit for stock ford rods and especially rod bolts.

Your engine has been ballanced and you seam to have upgraded the valve springs. These are the two main issues other than rodbolts that I suggest as in need of attention. I am only trying to save some grief for some other chap that might be running a standard ballance 302 above 6500 for extended track sessions. IMHO that is asking for a blown engine.

I any case, good luck to you on your season results.

 

[Brian Magee]

Randy

Then why are they produced?

Brian.

 

[Mike Drew]

Does anyone know Is it possible/reccomended to fit a windage tray with a GT40 sump (Armandos)??

FWIW, I had a Ford windage tray in my 289 in my GT350 (probably quite effective, and laughably cheap since Ford has been making it continuously for 40 years), and it fit with no problems with my Aviaid (same as Armando's) 9 1/2 quart racing pan.

I see no reason to believe that it wouldn't work with a GT40 pan too.

Mustangs Plus :: Engine :: Windage Trays :: 1965-73 289/302 Ford Racing Windage Tray

 

[Gordon Levy]

Brian, I have explained this at length in the past but it comes down to this.
Chevy engines while being raced needs a HV oil pump to like. The oiling system really is inadiquate for all out performance so HV pumps came into existance.
Someone jumped up and said if it works for chevy's it will work on Fords, which isn't the case. The oiling system on the Ford doesn't require a ton of pressure to live under extreme conditions. The biggest issue is the size of the drive gear on the dizzy. The chevy has a good size gear while the windser Fords are very small. The added drag that a HV or HP pump produces is to much for the gear to handle and it starts to eat itself and the cam gear.

 

[Randy V]

Randy

Then why are they produced?

Brian.

It's a really good question.
The Roller cam (steel) engines are famous for eating up the gear interfaces when running the HV pump - the flat tappet cam (iron) not so much..
With the reduction of zinc in motor oils (thanks EPA) - the wear is even greater..
I've built / blueprinted oil pumps for years and found that the HV pumps consume roughly 25% more power to turn them than do the SV pumps. They introduce more heat to the engine.
Talk to most anyone that's professionally built Ford engines (small blocks) and they'll tell you the same thing I am.

A Melling or Clevite (usually made by Melling) Iron SV oil pump produces sufficient volume to feed a racing engine that's plumbed with external oil cooler and reasonably sized lines (-10 or -12). That's what we've done / do and it works well..

To the point of Accusumps - I would rather not plumb one of these into an oiling system. Rather I would rather install a good, well baffled oil pan of reasonable capacity.
The Accusumps rob your engine of oil pressure at the time it needs it the most.
How's that?
With a poor oil pan design, your engine will lose oil pressure in a hard corner or during a carousel corner at high G-loading. This is when the Accusump discharges it's load into the galleys.
Once the G forces stabilize, your oil pump will now pickup oil and start to pressurize the galleys.
Here's the bad part - the discharged Accusump presents less resistance to the pressure than do the bearings - so where do you suppose the real volume of oil is going now?
That's right - to fill the Accusump.
Once the pressure resistance is equal between the Accusump and the bearings, you'll start feeding both equally..
Think about what your car is doing and the loading you are putting on the engine when the lateral G-Forces are low after coming off a corner.
Yep - you're flat on the throttle coming off that corner - your engine is on a Dyno-Pull as it's trying to accelerate that car as fast as it can.
Meanwhile mister thirsty Accusump is drinking up that life giving booze...

If you're in a class that allows Dry-Sumps - definitely go that route. If not - or your budget just won't stretch that far - get a better pan.

My $.02 worth anyway...

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Thought I'd comment too as reading Randy's explanation of the Accusump, I can confirm that this is (or was for us) exactly the case for Roy Smart's GTD40 in its early days.

With the data logging in place we were clearly recording low pressure when cornering. Fitting an accusump then gave exactly the effect Randy describes, in fact the problem was worse when fitted because as you accelerated hard exiting corners, without the accusump the returning oil pressure climbed considerably faster than with. We did use it as a pre-oiler for a while and it worked well to raise the pressure just before hitting the starter button. It had an electrical valve on it, so could be isolated as required - but in the end it was removed - (Roy always considered it too heavy )

Drysump conversion always gave good oil pressure - no question!

 

[Jac Mac]

I agree with Randy in regard to the Accusumps-They are only an engine saver if the driver allows them to do that. If you keep up the high speed/cornering loads that are causing the oil surge problem the Accusump cannot recover in time to help.

The oil requirements of Chev SB versus Ford SB are best visualised by examining the angles of the corners / turns of the oil galleries in the journey from pump to brgs.

SBC.70°-70°-20°-90°-90°-Filter-90°-R/Main-90°-270°-90°-(#4M via90°x3) ditto for #3/2/1 Mains.... So to reach #5M we have 430° of change & 1150° for #M 4/3/2/1.

SBF.70°-Filter-30°-30°-90°-#1Frt Main-80°-90°-90° for #2/3/4/5 Main Brgs.....So to reach #1M we have 230° of change & 480° for #M 2/3/4/5.

From that you should be able to 'see' that the Chev pump has to overcome a lot more resistance to flow in order to get the same amount of oil to reach the main bearings, hence the requirement for a larger pump/pressure- more power consumed driving the pump- more heat introduced to the oil by way of friction in traversing all those corners etc etc.


Jac Mac

 

[Ross Nicol]

The information being provided on this thread is amazing.
After reading I have learnt

1/Accusumps are crap

2/Chevs require high volume oil pumps due to much cornering of oil on it's way to the bearings.Downside oil pump power consumption and higher oil temp.

3/Ford small block does not need a high vol oil pump and if you are silly enough to fit one you will shorten the life of the distributor gear.

I love it when I not only find out what or what not to do but why.Now to find a way for this information not to get buried in the archives.Maybe a gold section or something.

Rossrockonsmile

 

[Ross Nicol]

Howard I changed the valve springs on this motor after valve float caused some bending of valves.However I have always revved it to 6500.Occasionally due to missed gear or sticky throttle it has hit the rev limiter higher than this figure so it gets a work out.The FMS crate motors would not be as well balanced as this motor. I would recommend anyone buying a crate motor strip it and balance the crank and rods as a minimum.My view is anyone who owns a GT40 is going to have to show off it's capabilities sooner or later.

Ross

 

[Howard Jones]

Anyone with a FMS crate-motor read what Ross just said and take it to heart. Rebalance and install good valve springs. Right on Ross.

Otherwise, since we have the guys here who know, I have another question. Is it true that using a HV pump on a SBF will also cause too much oil to end up in the lifter valley and valve covers with a stock size pan? This causes low oil volume in the pan and damage to the rod/main bearings. I have heard this many times. True?

 

[Jac Mac]

Otherwise, since we have the guys here who know, I have another question. Is it true that using a HV pump on a SBF will also cause too much oil to end up in the lifter valley and valve covers with a stock size pan? This causes low oil volume in the pan and damage to the rod/main bearings. I have heard this many times. True?

Howard, that can/does happen with both pumps ( Std & HV ), but the HV gets blamed more often simply because with cold oil it can pump more than the relief valve can cope with so you end up with more oil 'upstairs' rather than in the pan. Its not really a pump problem so much as a drain back issue where in standard form the oil drains thru the valley drains directly on to the spinning crank & gets hung up in the form of windage. With an oil level/depth in the pan of say 3" at standstill its not hard to envisage that with one third of that capacity in windage you will only have 2" or less above the pickup screen, put the car thru a corner at speed & it will uncover the pickup & pull air- instant disaster- in fact it will pull air when there is still around 1.5" of oil cover.

FWIW- this is how I configure anything thats going to get a hard time.
1. Stand pipes in center valley drains approx 1.5" high to force valley oil to drain thru timing cover & at rear of valley. This virtually stops most of the windage as the only oil on the crank is cam brg / lifter bleed plus that exiting the crank itself. This does not cause much of an oil buildup in the valley- just forces the oil to drain back in areas away from the crank counterweights. By using stand pipes as opposed to simply blocking off the valley drains the blow by gases can still escape into the valley area to the breathers via push rod holes etc . If you block the valley drains then blow by has to travel down below the main brg webs to each end of the block & vent back up thru the holes that we are trying to drain oil thru- not a clever idea.
2.I also install stand pipes at each end of the heads to raise the 'running' oil level up to the bottom of the PC stem seals to aid in cooling of valve springs. These stand pipes have a small(0.060") hole drilled at the base to allow oil drainback after shutdown to save making a mess when removing rocker covers. You have to allow for this amount of oil doing your *initial fill * mark your dipstick accordingly.
3.A pan with baffles gates etc that works, along with scrapers, trays where reqd. AND *Most Important*- get the pickup screen within 0.200"/0.250" of the bottom of the pan and ensure the pan has a rib or swage in the immediate area to ensure it wont flex or allow itself to be sucked up against the screen.

Jac Mac

 

[Julian West]

Thanks for all the replies to this thread. I fired up the newly rebuilt motor for the first time last week. Oil pressure is up to around 65 psi on tickover (cold) & drops to around 58 psi on tickover once the engine is warm. This is around 25 psi higher that the 'old' motor using the same brand of oil 15-50.

The engine was totally stripped, crank ground, new main & big end bearings, new rods, new rings, new oil pump (std!), heads stripped & skimmed with new valve seats cut. The whole rotating assembly went up to Bassett Down for balancing & the motor was rebuilt at my local engine shop.

I've also fitted a laminova cooler but as yet don't have any way of measuring the oil temperature.... but am working on this!

While the motor was out I made a few other improvements & will detail these on my build thread sometime...... Car is going in to have the carb dialled in next week & then time to play!!