302 max torque and power?

[Ross Nicol]

I'm interested in the Maximum figures that have been derived from a 302 SB,here is the criteria -

Normally Aspirated
302 not a stroker
Carby or fuel injected
98 Ron fuel (unleaded pump fuel) so 10:1 compression or so
Dyno results not heresay or guess

I suppose a 302 with raised port, high flow race heads(egYates) will take this out as the V8 supercars in Australia which run 302 blocks with Yates heads are known to achieve in excess of 600hp which seems exceptional for the 302

My current motor is a 302 with Victor junior heads and I have an engine dyno sheet Max Torque 369ftLb @ 5500RPM
Power 438hp @ 6800RPM

Ross

 

[Russ Noble]

Haha! No idea Ross! But I can see that you already think enough is not enough!! :lol:

Cheers,

 

[Jac Mac]

Try a 4bbl Ross.

Jac Mac

 

[Ross Nicol]

Am I scaring you Russ? Jac Mac those figures are from the Motec Dyno and the motor had a Motec 4 Barrel injection on a VJ manifold at that time. Do you think I might have lost some of this power by fitting the 8 barrel? I probably already know the answer to that.Anyway I think you guys know where I'm headed. One things for sure if I go the 600hp route I will silence the ZF critics if it hangs in.I will do it just to see the look on that Ex Seton AU guy's face when I blast past him.You see he's upset me:lol:
Ross

 

[Sandy]

Don't let them get you down Ross, just shift smooth and she will hold together, and if she does blow, never ever tell us!

And yes the 4BBL is the answer, just isn't as cool as efi

I think some of the GT350 Vintage folks are making will into the Mid 500hp mark on 289'ish cubes. They spin them a bit harder then 6800 as you might imagine. I know of a 306 from Total Engine Airflow which went to the UK that cranked out 608 as I recall on a bit better set of heads then on my 331 in the mustang (~560hp). I think they were turning it 8400. Nothing crazy fancy just great heads and some reliable parts.

Here's the link.

Total Engine Airflow

Did I piss off everyone

Sandy

 

[Russ Noble]

Am I scaring you Russ? Nah! Not scared! Remember Jac Mac's on my team epper: before you implement anything he say's. LOL. Jac Mac those figures are from the Motec Dyno and the motor had a Motec 4 Barrel injection on a VJ manifold at that time. Do you think I might have lost some of this power by fitting the 8 barrel? I probably already know the answer to that.Anyway I think you guys know where I'm headed. One things for sure if I go the 600hp route You're on the slippery slope now Ross. How long do you think it will be before 600hp will not be enough boomsmile I will silence the ZF critics if it hangs in. It'll be solid as a rock Ross, it's torque not horsepower that kills them. When you talk yourself into a Keith Craft 496 FE, that's when you'll have problems . I will do it just to see the look on that Ex Seton AU guy's face when I blast past him.You see he's upset me:lol: Yeah, I can also see a big FE in your future!:lol:
Ross[/quote

Cheers,

Russ

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Ross you have enough power --you just need to drive it harder and don't "stop" for the corners.
Get rid of unnecessary weight and get that thing to handle--the rest of those cars in the field you should be able to blow off with aerodynamics and cornering speed . -- and get back on those angry pills for medication Coach

 

[Jac Mac]

Ross,
I think you might possibly have two or even 3 things against you here.

1. A while ago you mentioned signs of reversion above the trumpets.
2. Your camshaft has 106 lobe centers and is cataloged as an oval track or drag cam. Rpm range 4/7000.
3. Do your exhausts have a straight tailpipe or do they enter the mufflers directly from the collector.

A combination of the above may be killing off some HP in your application.

Jac Mac.

 

[Ross Nicol]

Jac Mac
I do get some discolouration of the rear windscreen which I have put down to reversion but having said that I haven't noticed it too much lately.Yes my cam is a Crower 15416 and is listed with 106 degree lobe centres, high torque oval track and drag race profile. RPM range 3000 to 7000/redline 7500 plus.I have a 3 bolt flange at the end of the collector and approx 2" of pipe before the mufflers.
I've got a result sheet of CFM flow checks for the heads-

intake CFM @ .6 lift = 274.7

exhaust CFM @ .6 lift = 193

These flow figures are not great compared to the twisted wedge heads in the article Sandy posted, intake flow at .6 lift was 325 CFM.
What do you think good sir?
Ross

 

[Ian K]

Allen Moffat's 1969 Boss 302 Mustang hit 485 HP with Webers.

moffstang

Factory Boss 302s were rated at 290HP, but many believe it was
closer to 400HP.

Bill Maier's 1968 302 Mustang hit 450HP and 385 ft/lbs.

Ford Mustang information, specifications, history, and images. High Resolution, Wallpapers, Destop Images.

Ian

 

[Mike Pass]

I have a fuel injection manifold from an aluminium GT40 race car. See pic. The engine this came from was a 289 which made 525bhp on the dyno at EDA in Castleford. The engine apparently ran to very high rpm!
Mike

 

[DBLDREW]

Am I scaring you Russ? Jac Mac those figures are from the Motec Dyno and the motor had a Motec 4 Barrel injection on a VJ manifold at that time. Do you think I might have lost some of this power by fitting the 8 barrel? I probably already know the answer to that.Anyway I think you guys know where I'm headed. One things for sure if I go the 600hp route I will silence the ZF critics if it hangs in.I will do it just to see the look on that Ex Seton AU guy's face when I blast past him.You see he's upset me:lol:
Ross

If you are seriously trying to go for the 600 mark, make sure you go with a Sportsman or Dart, block. The 600hp mark seems to be the sweet spot for cracking the standard production 302 block.

 

[Ross Nicol]

My block is listed on the build sheet as a B50 and I'm pretty sure it's a Sportsman.Please correct me anyone if I'm wrong.It was originally 2 bolt mains but has been upgraded to 4 bolt during a 2003 freshen up.Steel crank and rods so I don't think there will be a strength issue.
Ross

 

[Keith]

Ross, I honestly think you're going to give yourself quite few problems shooting for 600 reliable hp from a SBF or any SB come to that and still race on a "gentleman's" budget. I reckon you'll be rebuilding the top end quite regularly, and, are you dry sumped? I think you'd better be...

500hp is a figure that was "magic" even 10 short years ago and if you achieved 500 honest hp with today's parts you would probably have a bullet proof motor too. As a previous poster said, concentrate on handling and technique and there would be over a second a lap just in that alone.

Who also famously once said - a racetrack is a couple of straight bits joined by a series of bends, in other words you spend more time in the bends than on the straights, therefore there is more to be gained in handling and technique rather than brute power. There will always be tracks where power wins but there's many more where it doesn't.

Hope you don't mind me chipping in. My racing days are over but i still get excited by the prospect....

 

[Ross Nicol]

Hi Keith and Chris
I used to think the way you guys do, that better driving and faster cornering will beat a car with more power but have a think about it this way.Driving the pants off a car comes with risk, to outcorner a competitor you are generally forced to late brake and take him up the inside,he may pretend or genuinely not see you and turn in to the apex with potential damage to one or both cars. The V8 Supercar I was playing with last weekend only had to wait for a short straight to pass me under power, which he did more than once.I on the other hand had to get him off the start and try and hold him out by blocking the inside line in the corners.This is something the Race stewards frown upon until maybe the final lap.I might turn out to be a hopeless driver but I want the chance to compete with these guys on an even playing field because I don't reckon I am hopeless. To think you can beat the guys I race against without balancing the horsepower is like:dead: flogging a dead horse, honestly.When I say they pass me like I am standing still that is not an overstatement.I know it's hard to believe an old Tr8 can out power a Ford GT40 but these guys have 4.7L capacity and Wildcat heads etc etc. Anyway I just have to move in the direction I think is right.
Yes I am dry sumped Keith.
Ross

 

[Andy Besic]

Ross
FWIW. I have some experience racing the underpowered car in the class. Go for some more ponies but realize that any braking and handeling issues will increase exponentially. I saw some of your threads with the overheated rotors and suspension mods etc. and that they seem to be working well now, but if you add 150hp you will have to add 150hp to the brakes. Does your race group allow water cooling to the brakes?
600hp in a car that handles well with 400hp will make driving "at the limit" more like walking a tightrope on a windy day. You will have to in fact be a BETTER driver with more HP or else just be the fastest guy to the turn one kitty litter. MHO

 

[Ross Nicol]

Hi Andy
Yes I've had plenty of experience as the underpowered car in my races too.Before the GT40 I raced a 240z, had a lot of fun against a GTV too.It was nice to step into the 40 and experience some real grunt though.When I started with the 40 I had a mixture of road parts and full race parts on the car.In the brake dept I had 6 piston AP calipers on the front and 4 piston on the rear with road rotors on both.Now I have AP rotors all round with alloy floating hats on the front and bolted alloy hats on the rear.Coupled with the Tilton pedal box I now have a full race braking system and except for some improved ducting, I'm confident they will handle the increased demand you have pointed out.I've sat back thinking these guys with illegal cars will get knobbled and forced to comply with the rule book but I fully understand now that ain't gonna happen.I have done quite well in the wet as this is when the big HP can't be used but now I have the brakes at a high level and the handling much better, I'm confident the car and myself can handle the increase in power. Damn there I go probably sounding pompous again but I'm really only saying whats on my mind.

Ross

 

[Keith]

I dunno, putting 600hp in a '40 fills me with a sensation approaching horror - I can't quite explain but it kind of unbalances the whole concept.

Even if i was fit to race again, I couldn't and wouldn't contemplate it, not in a "replica". I would probably buy a BA. Anyway, someone will get 700 hp next season and then your 800 hp '40 will end up with a knot tied in it somewhere around the mid section, following which there'll be a return to sanity and the introduction of an "index of performance" to prevent this mad lust for power and savaging of the corporate chequebook..

But whatever you decide, good luck and keep the stories coming!!

 

[Scott Calabro]

Ross,

Get to the corner as fast as possible !
That was pretty much the entire Can Am theory.
Build as much HP as you can afford.
Build as much brake as you can afford.
As long as you can accelerate and decelerate faster than the next guy, the corners will pretty much take care of themselves.

Happy Easter !

Regards,
S

 

[ChrisL]

Ross,
For what its worth, I don't believe you ever sounded pompous. I do believe that you have a level of self belief and a healthy desire to question conventional thinking, but thats a good thing and is quite different to being pompous. Keep speaking your mind. It leads to meaningful discussion on the forum.