B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.

[Doug S.]

For skipped pieces, just for instance, GWB was at DFW airport with Laura Bush on the 11th of this month greeting troops coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan. You didn't hear about that anywhere, nice gesture.

POTUS Bee-OH will be in Fort Bliss this afternoon, personally thanking returning troops for their service.

That was on the local NBC channel's morning news show today.

Perhaps Gee-DUB's trip to DFW might have been on their local news shows....I doubt it would be national news, regardless of whether was the current POTUS or a past POTUS.

And you're right...nice gesture, this time it's on Bee-OH's part, though :idea: .

Cheers from Doug!!

 

[Keith]

I think if you take the long term view - we (Christians and 'spin-offs') broke free from the shackles of non secular control many hundreds of years ago, but we have in the past, had our very big moments of fundamentalism. (Strangely though, not normally amongst the hoi polloi - who died in their many hundreds of thousands to clear the path to the Kingdom of Heaven for the rich who could afford it).

It now another era and yet the game remains the same and the fundamentalist boot is on the other foot.

So, who's brand of fundamentalism washes whitest? And, as the world turns will it not all balance out and in the end and the scales then tip another way?

Does not the law of physics apply to every movement on earth?

You never know, we may be the bad guys talking historically!

 

[Nick]

Granted, not all muslims are extremist, but there were a hell of a lot of people cheering on 9/11 news clips. Nick, if the only sticky point is the location of the mosque at GZ, then wouldn't you think moving to another NY location would be an easy fix? Again, that makes it suspect for the insistence to build at GZ. " Some wacky members of our religion blew up a landmark and killed 3000 people, we can move the mosque, that would be the right thing, what Allah wants us to do". Works for me.

Al,

If you want to resolve the conflict at some time one side has to back down. Why not take the moral high ground , let them build their Mosque and build something better yourself.

 

[Damian]

Nick that is a lame response and shows that you have to idea of the gravity of those events. To turn the other cheek so to speak will just get both sides of your face red in N.Y. Unlike most foreigners on here we CITIZENS of the U.S. and more to the point residents (both past and present) of the city that will kick your city's a$$ see this as a smack in the face to not only our country but us PERSONALLY. Right or wrong it is what is. Trust me this is going to get MUCH MUCH WORSE!! How about they gain some compassion and respect those that lost their lives and the city as a whole and just move the site?

Your argument just runs round and round and NEVER SOLVES ANYTHING. Do you actually think that even once they break ground that people are going to let this go or that those families are just going to say AHH HECK LETS JUST ALL GET ALONG AND SING CUMBAYA BY THE CAMP FIRE?

 

[Charlie Farley]

Mr Hardy, i read what you say, but !!!
How would they like a Jewish school outside Mecca ?.
It's clear to me, that fundamentalism is at work here.
It's basically a ' V ' sign to American sensibilities.
I hope they don't give in and allow it.
If they do, hypocritical so called ' Muslims '
( who drink alcohol when no one's looking )
will count this as a victory.
They aren't interested in the mosque, just the fact
that they can get away with the insult !

 

[Keith]

No guys, you are right and in my empathetic way I totally missed the point that the only obvious way to solve this issue is to continue to cause major collateral damage to innocent civilians who don't give a flying fuck for your national pride or beliefs, only their own, while they are sweeping up the body parts of their recently and forcibly departed loved ones.

Failing that of course, is the thermo nuclear strategy which is also a great idea because it will teach emerging nuclear nations that it is absolutely fine to use such resources as long as you are quite sure it is the right thing to do.

That the strategy you are suggesting really works is evidenced by the fact that Iraq is now a peaceful normalised country and that Afghanistan has really only taken several hundred years of intervention by 3 major powers and I feel we're maybe just about getting there give or take another century or two and it's good to see that the flow of raw heroin has slowed to a mere 500 tons a year under the noses of the authorities. Very very satisfying. And anyway, it's still only a 'Police Action' isn't it? :blank:

No, chaps, I surrender. I can clearly see where you all are coming from and I regret doubting the wisdom of your strategy which has obviously been fine tuned and developed over the past 500 years into an art form.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

These are disturbing pictures an 8 year old boy being punished in front of a mosque for stealing bread. We need this in America!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

He was just a hungry little kid. Wonderful people!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

These are disturbing pictures an 8 year old boy being punished in front of a mosque for stealing bread. We need this in America!

Al, those images have been doing the rounds for years and it is a hoax.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/crushboy.asp

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Sure as hell looked realistic! Thanks Pete. After seeing the cover of Time with the mutilated girl, I can see them doing most anything.

 

[Nick]

Nick that is a lame response and shows that you have to idea of the gravity of those events. To turn the other cheek so to speak will just get both sides of your face red in N.Y. Unlike most foreigners on here we CITIZENS of the U.S. and more to the point residents (both past and present) of the city that will kick your city's a$$ see this as a smack in the face to not only our country but us PERSONALLY. Right or wrong it is what is. Trust me this is going to get MUCH MUCH WORSE!! How about they gain some compassion and respect those that lost their lives and the city as a whole and just move the site?

Your argument just runs round and round and NEVER SOLVES ANYTHING. Do you actually think that even once they break ground that people are going to let this go or that those families are just going to say AHH HECK LETS JUST ALL GET ALONG AND SING CUMBAYA BY THE CAMP FIRE?

Damian,

I base my thoughts and response on what happened in Northern Island as it is the only example I know of were terrorists have given up their arms.

It came about through dialogue, compromise, and the public wanting change. Through people such as Colin Parry and many others turning the other cheek, and incredible politicians such as Mo Mowlam.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0flVwRkf4M

 

[Damian]

Nick you said the key words; COMPROMISE and public WANTING A CHANGE. The public does NOT WANT this so there goes that part and a compromise ois out of the window since they have dug in and said that this is the site period. The good people of N.Y. have asked to move it (as there is another mosque not to far away from the planned site) and even some politicians have offered other site but these BA$TARD$ don't want to do anything you are suggesting. You have an idealist mind and thats great but it is not realistic or even probable on any level.

 

[Leon]

I haven't read the whole 21 pages of this theard, but I have read a considerable amount and its pretty clear to me that alot of the pro " turn the other cheek" people have never worked or had alot to do with Muslem people in there own enviroment. You are all so keen to help these people who want to enforce their ways in other countries out side of there Islamic home land, But have you ever thought what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot. Try getting permmision to build something or enforce western ways in Saudi or any other Middle East country, Believe me you would stand a SNOW BALLS CHANCE IN HELL. I have worked in the Middle East for some years now and I see how Nationals in these countries have absolutly NO RIGHTS, A friend of mine was deported only a few weeks ago from Oman for alledgedly swaring at a Local Man. NO COURT, the mans word was all the police listened to and he was out of the country in 24hrs, so why should you let them please them selfs in your country. If you want to be treated the same then you need to also have the same repect and that is just NOT HOW THEY THINK. I tend to agree with the train of thought that this is not about building, its about showing the world what they can get away with.As for the comparison with N.I. you have NO idea in the difference in People. Leonmac

 

[Keith]

As for the comparison with N.I. you have NO idea in the difference in People. Leonmac

Unless you have experienced NI personally in the past 40 years Leon, I would have to say that you would need to revisit that statement - a place where punishment gangs roamed the streets until quite recently dealing out their own sectarian form of punishment.

I'm quite sure those that ended up neckshot, kneedrilled, beaten burned and summarily executed in front of their families would have quite welcomed the idea of being simply deported without trial for the crime of walking in the wrong area, going to the wrong church or being seen with a girl/boyfriend from the "wrong" side..

 

[Damian]

So families of the MURDERED GROUND ZERO victims are O.K. with the mosque hugh:
Pearl: Put the mosque elsewhere . I will also add this here since it sums up how I feel about muslims in America: "We’d only add that any liberty-loving Muslim who came here to escape sharia would have never disrespected America by attempting to build a mosque there." taken from this site http://stopthe911mosque.com/

 

[Leon]

I take your point Keith, I guess the Irish wasn't a good choice, Although I would dare to say that may have something to do with blatant thugery as much as belief. The point I was trying to make is. These people have a belief that the western world canot comprehend, I have spoken with the guys I work with and these a perfectly nice guys, But there belief gives them NO fear of Death, they actualy believe the after life is better (which makes them easy tagets for Terorist camps) But the thing that is scarry is they Totaly believe they are right and that the western world has to bow down to there ways and no amout of bombs, bullets, or turning cheeks will ever change that. Which apparently it has changed alot in N.I. That was the point I was trying to Make. Leonmac

 

[Keith]

Point taken, accepted and believed Leon..

I think the interesting thing I would like to know is, in what proportion do these people exisit? For example, if you have spoken to 100 people on your travels individually and EVERYONE feels the same, then obviously some cause for concern, but it would depend much on their status.

If of fairly high status, education etc, then why would they want to 'cook the goose' that lays their golden eggs?

Do they spout this rhetoric alone with you or when others are present?

How prevalent are the attitudes you have experienced amongst 'ordinary' people?

Many of us have no daily contact with the type of people you describe and thus make our judgements based on the opinions of others who's agenda (present company excepted of course) may well be non parallel.

It would be good to learn more about them rather than simply calling for their excecution.

 

[Leon]

I agree and wouldn't for a second want to execute these guys, but to answer a couple of your questions, They speak openly about thier belief in a beter after life and that "Ahla" looks after every muslem and that he controls their destiny. I will give you an example of their total faith. (This is fact) 1) Oman and Suadi have the worst road fataly stats in the world,(Fact) 2) Ihave seen with my own eyes on many ocassions where they will overtake on blind corners, oncoming traffic and in thick dust and they believe Ahla will get them through (fact) 3) if on that day it doesn't work out, then that is his wish and they except it. Leonmac

 

[Chris P.]

Leon, so your suggestion is to become like them and not allow them to build a mosque? Or is your beef only with where the mosque is proposed to be built?

 

[Keith]

I agree and wouldn't for a second want to execute these guys, but to answer a couple of your questions, They speak openly about thier belief in a beter after life and that "Ahla" looks after every muslem and that he controls their destiny. I will give you an example of their total faith. (This is fact) 1) Oman and Suadi have the worst road fataly stats in the world,(Fact) 2) Ihave seen with my own eyes on many ocassions where they will overtake on blind corners, oncoming traffic and in thick dust and they believe Ahla will get them through (fact) 3) if on that day it doesn't work out, then that is his wish and they except it. Leonmac

Interesting. Anyone who has ever been to India will be quite familiar with that driving philosophy and it's quite a different religion, but faith in 'fate' is just as strong.

I really believe that we in the Western World also held the same simple faith in fate, up to and past WWI (the amount of 'willing' casualties support this concept although the French started to push back towards the end) and for sure the global & total nature of WWII for the first time involved huge casualties amongst large populations which may have given us our lust and perception for the 'preciousness' of life and the loss of 'blind irrational belief'

Perhaps this is now our weakness and 'their' strength?

But to deal with it, we surely have to analyse & understand it then use that knowledge tactically... not blindly use archaic scattergun techniques..