B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.

[Nick]

I haven't read the whole 21 pages of this theard, but I have read a considerable amount and its pretty clear to me that alot of the pro " turn the other cheek" people have never worked or had alot to do with Muslem people in there own enviroment.

Leon,

I work with British Muslims in their own environment every day.

My argument was take the moral high ground let them build their Mosque, and build something better such as a peace centre, for the victims.

If they are extremists, and you cannot change them you need to know were they are. At least if you know were they are and can keep an eye on them, which I suspect is already happening at known extremist Mosques in most western countries.

 

[Leon]

Nick, I think you missed my point, What I said was, you try forcing Western ways in the Middle East and see how accommidating they are for example how well do you think you would get on building an Anglican Church on the bombed site of a Mosque in Bagdad.

I'm not against them building a house of worship, I just think thier choice of site has a lot less to do with availible realestate than it does with sending a message to rest of the world. Leonmac

 

[Damian]

Let me put my spin on this from my personal experiences. I NO LONGER have any Muslim friends. In fact soon after the incident I went after a so called friends father and than preceded to school (let fists do educating)both of his sons for making this exact comment "if the U.S. didn't want this than they should not stick their nose where it doesn't belong (referring to Israel and the middle east as a whole)." This was right after I unwillingly watched a complete pile of crap and propaganda film called the September Tapes. The problem is that in public these people act as most red blooded Americans but behind closed doors it's another story completely. Funny thing is that soon after another person reported the family to homeland and last I heard they were under investigation.

This country was founded in part under the idea of religious openness but these people have no desire to allow you to worship how you choose. It's like they are trying to reenact the crusades but with a bastard son as their GOD!!!! There I said it and yes I do feel better. :thumbsup:

 

[Nick]

Nick, I think you missed my point, What I said was, you try forcing Western ways in the Middle East and see how accommidating they are for example how well do you think you would get on building an Anglican Church on the bombed site of a Mosque in Bagdad.

I'm not against them building a house of worship, I just think thier choice of site has a lot less to do with availible realestate than it does with sending a message to rest of the world. Leonmac

Leonmac,

Sorry did miss the point and you are right, but if we are not happy with the way they act and their laws should we not act differently?

Playing Devils advocate the Western countries has been invading and forcing other countries to adopt their ways for centuries.

 

[Leon]

As for the Western Countries, I can't argue with that, But that is a whole other Thread and I'm sure as hell not going down that line.

As for your suggestion that we act different, that would be a nice thought but I think that deep down (you say you know these people) even you would have to know that it is seen as weakness in their eyes.

I'm just lucky I live at the bottom of the world and we are a little removed from this. I work with Americans and Brits and the tails I hear are quite alaming.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Leon,

I work with British Muslims in their own environment every day.

My argument was take the moral high ground let them build their Mosque, and build something better such as a peace centre, for the victims.

If they are extremists, and you cannot change them you need to know were they are. At least if you know were they are and can keep an eye on them, which I suspect is already happening at known extremist Mosques in most western countries.

Nick, This isn't a moral ground situation, This isn't the survivors of the victims and people of the US saying that a mosque can't be built in New York City, as it would be if we wanted to build a church in a muslim country. This is about a people who are of a religious and demographic group that had some of theirs attack a place in New York City and kill over 3000 people in the name of Allah and Islam. It would show common decency for them to pick a less volatile spot to build their mosque. Do you think it was just coincidence that of all the property in New York, that they picked this spot, over 305 square miles in New York City, and they pick a spot this close? All the people that are pro mosque can't be that naive. The entire city and they picked a spot 2 blocks away. That's like someone doing something that offends you, but they know you have good manners enough not to say anything. They know that we have people and groups that will stand up for their "religious rights". What other group of immigrants come to a country and demand what is being demanded here. Look at your country, demands for sharia law, demands to change your country, and threats that they will, and they are changing it. It appears that the English have been taking too much "high moral ground". Englistan? I don't particularly want this happening in the US. Let them take the path of human decency, they are supposed to be a religion of something aren't they?
Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts -Times Online
Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads - CNN.com
These are but a few examples in England. It's scary!

 

[Nick]

?
Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts -Times Online
Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads - CNN.com
These are but a few examples in England. It's scary!

Al we are getting a bit of track but.

This has been posted before.

From the 1st of your links

The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.

from the second of your links

But in the same debate, held on the prestigious grounds of Dublin's Trinity College in October, many people in the crowd objected.

"These people, ladies and gentleman, have a good look at them. They actually believe if you kill women and children, you will go to heaven," said one young Muslim who waved his finger at the radicals

While Islamic extremists are believed to be a tiny minority of Britain's 1.6 million Muslims.


I guess we all (me included) pick out the bits we want to read and believe.

 

[Keith]

Scary to you or not Al, we are a far more tolerant & harmonious nation than most and the majority of Muslims just want to go their way in peace as we do.

Remember, what you will hear/see is dished up by the media. There are close to 70 million people on this tiny island, so if a mouse farts in London, it can taint the curry in Manchester

 

[Nick]

Scary to you or not Al, we are a far more tolerant & harmonious nation than most and the majority of Muslims just want to go their way in peace as we do.

Remember, what you will hear/see is dished up by the media. There are close to 70 million people on this tiny island, so if a mouse farts in London, it can taint the curry in Manchester

Keith,

I'm will be accused of bias but I love your posts, straight to the point, all power to your elbow. Are you sure your not a Northener?

From an ex shandy drinking softie South Westoner

 

[Keith]

It is alleged there there is both a Scottish & Yorkshire family element, which I always always vehemently deny, aye reet by 'eck..

 

[Mark Worthington]

Nick, you are advocating appeasement. How'd that work out for Great Britain, and much of the rest of the world, some 70 years ago? Our enemy today is just as ruthless, and even more fanatical.

 

[Keith]

Nick, you are advocating appeasement. How'd that work out for Great Britain, and much of the rest of the world, some 70 years ago? Our enemy today is just as ruthless, and even more fanatical.

With over 1 million casualties less than 20 years previously name me ANY nation that would have been desperate to rush into war again, given your 20/20 hindsight eh? Certainly not the USA.

How did that work out for Great Britain? We fucked them didn't we?

 

[Mark Worthington]

With over 1 million casualties less than 20 years previously name me ANY nation that would have been desperate to rush into war again, given your 20/20 hindsight eh?

Ummm...Germany. Was that a trick question?

How did that work out for Great Britain? We fucked them didn't we?

Indeed. After the policy of appeasement was abandoned and the gloves came off.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Indeed. After the policy of appeasement was abandoned and the gloves came off.

This is the problem today just as it has been since the Korean and most notably the Vietnam war. I wasn't alive for Vietnam, but my parents were and we have many family friends who were effected by this war. The damn bureaucrats and governing body has "strategy" that's supposed to win the hearts and minds. Well lemme tell you something, WAR doesn't win hearts OR minds. What it does is kill lots and lots of people, on all sides. Civilian casualties are always going to be a factor. Guess what, you're fighting in populated areas, people refuse to leave their homes, innocent lives are going to be lost. It's just gonna happen. Minimizing innocent casualties is the main reason we have so many super accurate weapons, but it's still a problem, and a factor in war.

What we need to do is just take the damn gloves off. Whoop all the ass that needs to be whooped and be friggin done with it already!! Quit pussyfooting around and just get it done. Drawing this out is just pointless. I look at WWII as the last great generation and last great war, if there can be such a thing. People were fighting against tyranny and were pumped about it. Kids were lying about their age just for the HONOR to serve their country. It was an ingrained belief that an individual could and would make a difference. We have lost that as a people. There is not one person out there who honestly, SERIOUSLY believes that one person can make all the difference. What happened?

I think the main problem with taking the gloves off is everyone is scared shitless about nuclear warfare. Well, I'll have to agree that it's a pretty scary thought. BUT, if we keep screwing around and fighting the way we are, the terrorist groups are going to continue to get larger and more powerful and get their hands on nuclear weapons and material. Since we've been too damn soft on them, they keep getting chance after chance to go out and do it again. The only nuclear weapons that anyone should be worried about are the ones being dropped en mass from orbiting B52 bombers carpet bombing the whole damn combat area with low yield warheads.

But that's just the way this 31 year old American sees it...

Brian


PS
About the mosque, I do not have any problem with a house of worship for any religion. We have an amendment to our constitution stating pretty damn obviously that we, the people have freedom of religion. In fact, I think it's part of the first amendment. BUT, what's happening here is we are too damn worried about offending someone that we will sacrifice common decency and respect for fallen AMERICANS in order to appease the feelings of a foreign religion just trying to see what they can get away with. Oh yeah, it's that simple. They are trying to see how far they can push it. Guess what, they're winning. The American government and people as a whole are looking like a bunch of chumps. I don't like looking like a chump. Do you? Whether you're an American or not, how would you like to be viewed as not only the asshole nation, but the asshole nation that everyone USED to be scared of because they were the most powerful nation on earth, but now are just a joke.

Wait a minute, now I know how you guys feel over in England... Sorry about that. Guess history is repeating itself...

 

[Nick]

Nick, you are advocating appeasement. How'd that work out for Great Britain, and much of the rest of the world, some 70 years ago? Our enemy today is just as ruthless, and even more fanatical.

Mark,

Whole different scenario, in my opinion one of the few justified wars, the war to end all wars.

The initial post was about Obama possibly supporting the building of a Mosque, my appeasement was to let them do it and build something better. I do not believe the building of a Mosque would lead to a third world war.

If it did then we have not developed very far as civilised human beings.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

I don't know about it sparking a WWIII, but it sure as shit may spark another Civil War in the US. The American people are getting sick and tired of the BS. We are becoming an extremely divided nation, and it's getting worse every day. Every time Obama makes a speech, it pisses more and more people off, and at the same time appeases more and more people. Something's going to spark this, and it WILL NOT be pretty.

 

[Nick]

Whether you're an American or not, how would you like to be viewed as not only the asshole nation, but the asshole nation that everyone USED to be scared of because they were the most powerful nation on earth, but now are just a joke.

Wait a minute, now I know how you guys feel over in England... Sorry about that. Guess history is repeating itself...

Brian,

Your full "nuke them" post scares me if that is any consolation.

Would you be willing to allow "carpet bombing the whole damn combat area with low yield warheads" if the wars in Germany Vietnam, Korea Afganistan and Iraq had been or were being fought on American soil, and the combat area was on USA soil, say for example a few miles from your house.

 

[Nick]

I don't know about it sparking a WWIII, but it sure as shit may spark another Civil War in the US. The American people are getting sick and tired of the BS. We are becoming an extremely divided nation, and it's getting worse every day. Every time Obama makes a speech, it pisses more and more people off, and at the same time appeases more and more people. Something's going to spark this, and it WILL NOT be pretty.

Brian,

I think better of US citizens, would they really be willing to start a terrorist war against their democatically elected government because they do not like the BS from their president?.

This would make them no different from any other terrorist ie trying to impose their views on others through violence and fear.

You have won one account this is getting way out of hand time to leave the debate I think.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I've said basically the same thing a few times on this thread and no one seems to read it.
"It would show common decency for them to pick a less volatile spot to build their mosque. Do you think it was just coincidence that of all the property in New York, that they picked this spot, over 305 square miles in New York City, and they pick a spot this close? All the people that are pro mosque can't be that naive. The entire city and they picked a spot 2 blocks away."
Why the insistence on building on THIS spot?" At this point I would bet that someone would donate a site that is not near GZ. Ground zero probably borders on being religious for the victim's relatives, what about their rights?

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Ground zero probably borders on being religious for the victim's relatives, what about their rights?

Native American rights no longer are the key focus. And by Native Americans, I mean natural born citizens. (Well, Native Americans rights don't matter anymore either. LOL) Haven't you realized that yet? We native citizens are supposed to bend over backwards to accommodate the "rights" of those new to our country. Be it by legal, or illegal means. By this I'm getting into the whole Illegal Alien stuff that's going on in my back yard. There is a battle zone here in Texas along the boarder. Loredo, Texas is extremely dangerous now. Don't even bother going there unless you're looking to defend yourself, or try to help the law enforcement clean up the streets.

Nick, didn't mean to scare you about the "nuke em" post. But if a war escalates to nuclear weapons, then we need to step that up. Not really saying that we need to do that first and foremost, but if it comes down to it, we need not be afraid. What we should have done is just carpet bomb an entire area. They killed thousands of innocent American citizens in one horrible attack. Payback is a bitch. Mess with us and we'll repay it 10 fold. THAT is what we should have done. Call us unfair, call us bullies, but you won't call us cowards and you won't try to mess with us EVER again. But now, we're looked upon as the gentle giant. That dog down the street that has the really mean bark and is huge in stature, but will lick you to death. That's us right now.

As for the Civil War thing... We will have to see. I hope it never happens, but the people are getting PISSED OFF. It's not the president, it's the whole damn government and it's belief that they know better than we do, what we need. Keep your government out of my life thanks. Do what you're supposed to do, maintain roads, keep the boarders safe (fail), maintain infrastructure, and leave me the hell alone. I like my guns, I want my gay friends to get married, I like my gas hog hot rods, and I like my freedom. The government should have NO say in any of that stuff.

It seems to me that all the governments in the "free world" are pulling the same shit at the same time. Anyone else notice this? Seems rather odd. Not pointing to a global conspiracy or anything, but it just seems pretty friggin odd to me. Weird coincidence? You tell me! I'm not a conspiracy type person. Please know that, I'm just observing a weird trend of the US, England, and Australia all pretty much screwing over their people for "the greater good". Anyone seen that movie Hot Fuzz? LOL

Starting a whole 'nother argument I guess... Just ranting. Ignore me. LOL