Cost of Iraq war???????

[David Briggs]

It has been a fine debate and when the Iraqui's step up and take back control of their country then we can leave, before that happens I believe that we will be there in force.
The question is "How much time, money and lives will the American people give the Iraqui's before it no longer matters?"
Happy Thanksgiving
Dave

 

[Ian K]

Pete, if you reread what I wrote, you will see that I pointed out that the number two
supplier of chemical weapons material was the Netherlands. The point of my post,
however, was that your assertion that the US did not supply anything is untrue.

The US helped bring Saddam to power and helped build the Iraqi army so that we
had another strong middle east ally. We supported Saddam and Iraq during the
Iraq/Iran war in many ways. Later, we had many opportunities to remove Saddam
form power, and chose not to. Why? Because Saddam was a known entity. Getting
rid of him would have put someone else in power, and that someone would have
likely been someone we knew far less of. As a result, Saddam's reign of terror and
genocide went on much longer than it should have.

Ian

 

[Duncan Potter]

Lotta hate there Dean.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[ChrisL]

ChrisL you are condescending as are most of your liberal left zealots. Thats OK. Believe in God or not.

You are damned right I am condescending because I personally have had enough of my rights being slowly eroded, human life being slowly devalued and racial hatred becoming the norm, just because some people are too busy thumping their chest to listen to reason.

But you know nothing about me and have no idea what my political leaning is so don't go calling me a liberal left zealot. I will announce to everyone here that I regrettably helped vote in this right wing government here in Australia when they first came to power 11 years ago and I have watched them slowly move further and further to the right over that time. I will also tell you that every workday on my lunch break I read the local Murdoch newspaper cover to cover, which you will guess also has a right leaning. But I also listen to the ABC news on the TV in the evenings which gives me a balanced view of the world. Now feel free to look up all my comments on this forum about this subject going back to 2001 and you will see that my arguments have been consistent and rock solid the whole time (and I have never resorted to simplistic cliche name calling), unlike the vacillating excuses that I hear in support of the war. First it was WMD's, then it was to remove the terrorist threat from Iraq, then it was to depose Saddam then it was spreading democracy ... and how many more new excuses are we going to suffer, and how many more times are we going to hear "mission accomplished" before its all over? Sorry but there is no longer any credibility in the argument that all is rosey in Iraq.

I give no apology for my anger. There are some things worth getting mad about and the basic right to live in a world without useless politically motivated wars is one of them.

 

[Dave Wood]

(and I have never resorted to simplistic cliche name callingI give no apology for my anger.
There are some things worth getting mad about and the basic right to live in a world without useless politically motivated wars is one of them.

I agree that name calling is typically used when one can't win a debate on merits, which this has none. It also lowers the debate to a level of disrespect and anymous, which are the exact things that motivate our leadless leaders.

I couldn't have expressed the second comment any better myself. If people would examine how they function as a community, they would realize that within their own community there are multiple views of the world, but you don't physically attack people just for differences of opinion. Self defense is the only acceptable use of force, not social engineering, we need to realign our foreign policy within those guidelines. Our foreign policy has absolutely no consistency except ......... "Do as we say or experience our wrath". Unfortunately my wrath is for the idiots in D.C. that get rich and live like aristocrats on the backs of the working people and the human fodder of their children. There is no way that we would allow another country, and I could care less if the U.N. says it's O.K., to dictate to us how we should live. Why are we always surprised that people in other countries feel similarly??

 

[JohnC]

Although several of us have now undoubtedly been branded as flaming liberal, pinko commie, Bush hating atheists, I just wanted to say that, although our personal freedoms and privacy have been severely compromised in recent years by the Bush Administration’s Patriot Act, I am still very thankful to be able to live in a country where our masters give us enough “leash” to publicly state our opinions without fear of reprisal.

This thread is most certainly being monitored by the NSA, as are all Internet transmissions with the right buzz words, but although some of our FBI dossiers have probably been expanded a little due to our leftist comments over the last few days, at least we don’t have to worry about being hauled off to Gitmo in the night for saying the wrong things about the wrong persons.

That’s one of the great things about America that hasn’t changed (yet).

Happy Thanksgiving and God Bless!

Also: Salaam Alakum y'all!

 

[Gregg]

Also: Salaam Alakum y'all!

John, enjoy your stay at Gitmo

 

[Dean Lampe]

There is really no hate there, just frustration. I have so much pride as an American for my country that I push back when it is attacked. Attacked by not giving the respect to the office of President regardless of who he or she might be at the time. I also can't seem to understand how so many people are concerned about our world image but don't want to make sacrifices for liberty and freedom for those who are oppressed in other countries. Is Freedom just for us? Or do we have an obligation to try and bring Freedom to others.

I do offer my apology's if I got a little personal. I was not alone. I still enjoyed the debate and I hope we can continue to share the GT40 passion that we all have regardless of our politics.

 

[Howard Jones]

Ya well..... WE will get the blender going as soon as you lefties arrive. Some of the other nice fellows here are going to start a volley ball tournament after the lunch barbecue down on the beach. AND they are looking forward to the dance tonight in the new arrivals honor.

Please be sure to let them all know how much you care and be sure to wear a nice clean pair of undies......it's been a while.

Oh and Dean and Pete are 100% on point! The lefties are and never will be. That's just the way it is. They are the stone around the neck of free people...... and we like it like that. They constantly remind the rest of us of the consequences of inaction and bold foresight.

I think they are still pissed off because the west won the war against communism.

 

[Jac Mac]

Ya well..... WE will get the blender going as soon as you lefties arrive. Some of the other nice fellows here are going to start a volley ball tournament after the lunch barbeque down on the beach. AND they are looking forward to the dance tonight in the new arrivals honor.

Please be sure to let them all know how much you care and be sure to wear a nice clean pair of undies......it's been a while.

Nice One

Jac Mac

 

How many of you are Muslims? How many of you actually lived in that region (I am not talking about being there on “assignment”)? How many of you have 60-80 family members in the region where bombs are either blowing up now, or will be blowing up in the near future?! How many of you actually have a Muslim friend (not an acquaintance) that you invited to your thanksgiving.

Why is it that every idiot thinks if you don’t like Bush you MUST BE A DEMO”CRAP”? Or the other idiots that think if you like owning guns YOU MUST BE RE”POOP”LICAN”.

I am the only “Muslim boy” here on this Forum. I am citizen of this country and I love US of A. Unlike most of you “OLD FARTS”, I had to earn my citizenship (It was not cheap or free). Specially “these days”, being a Muslim or born in IRAN is unfashionable

One of my jobs (when I do work!, is being a Middle School teacher. I LOVE working with kids. Unlike most OLD FARTS they do admit to being wrong from time to time. And best of all, they don’t consider themselves REPOOPLICAN or DEMOCRAPS. They often ask me,,, ”HEY MR.F ,,,,are you Muslim,,,what do you think about,,,,,?!”

If everyone on this forum take a bit of time away from their idiotic “passion” (GT40, Lemans, Gulf colors,,,, similar BS) and spend time educating/informing yourself (about other cultures and NOT on how to make more money and buy more cars), there would not be so much “constipation of the brain.”

Some of you on this Forum, I know personally, and I wish, you didn’t have a DONKEY or an ELEPHANT tattooed to your balls.

“SOME” (not all) of the crapy policies that this administration has pursued are by no means unique!! It has been the same policy for the last 5 or 6 administrations.

Maybe it is not the politicians!!! It is WE THE Un-informed.

Here is something "light" for you to look at,,starts from 2 of 4 and go through 4 of 4. NOOO it's not about GT40 but it does have to do with a race car driver in IRAN.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[Gregg]

Maybe it is not the politicians!!! It is WE THE Un-informed.

Here is something "light" for you to look at,,starts from 2 of 4 and go through 4 of 4. NOOO it's not about GT40 but it does have to do with a race car driver in IRAN.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Falli, thanks for the links. After watching Matt Lauer's interviews, I will admit I was unaware of such freedoms for women. Why would I be? The mainstream media do not broadcast such stories. Most news oragnizations routinely and continuously broadcast anti-American sentiments, protests, the cycle of Arab family members passing down to their children and grandchildren their hatred for America. Most politicians are just as un-informed as everyone else. That is the scary part. Add to that the fact that most politicains take the easy, safe route and have no strength in their convictions or to do what is just and right. They are all looking down the road to the next election. Sad state of affairs which will unfortunately not change any time soon.

 

[John Lowe]

Very interesting thread. Just wanted to make a few observations.

1. The point about most international conflicts where military force is used ,whether started by a gangster/warrior lunatic dictators like Hitler or by a democracy, is that the leaders need to sell it (or propaganda it if you prefer) to get the populace to support their actions. In some cases this is by appealing to base Nationalistic/Racist type jingoism or in others by selling the WMD/ridding the world of a tyrant type argument.

2. Never mind the "sales pitch" the only reason a democracy goes to war is to protect its national interests where it judges that force is the only way to achieve its objective. This, by definition, is always for the "right" reasons and if the "right" reasons do not sound palatable then dress it up with ones that are (WMD/ridding the world of a tyrant etc etc). However all politicians being fallible human beings make errors of judgement with Vietnam being a classic example. The USA (rightly) saw communism as a threat to its national interest but mistakenly launches into a conflict it was not equipped to win.

3. Now mix the logic of 1 and 2 together and add the ingredient that the West (that’s pretty well all of us) is highly dependant on a stable Middle East for its oil supplies. Trouble is the Middle East is highly unstable with a nitro glycerine cocktail of "Kingdoms", Dictatorships, Religious Extremists, Tribal and National factions and Israel. Most of which would still be true regardless of what the West does or doesn’t do. (I have ignored the less than helpful role played by the West in the past since we are where we are)

4. The aims of the West, frankly led by the USA, is to do whatever it can to maintain whatever (shaky?) stability is possible. This, of course, is an impossible thing to "get right" because it is so complex However that is not an excuse for simply doing nothing. In some future time some combination of the oil running out and new technology will enable us to walk away. Then the Middle East can sort out its own future but I fear that the absence of Western involvement will not ensure an easy or peaceful process.

5. My nett position is that it is the duty of an elected goverment to act in our best interests and it is our duty to throw them out if this duty results in unacceptable actions. My own view is that the downside of the West not being in Iraq is far worse than us staying. Life aint easy.

John - for clarity I live in England.

 

[Dave Wood]

Is Freedom just for us? Or do we have an obligation to try and bring Freedom to others.

Freedom is for whomever wants it and TAKES it for their own. It is not GIVEN, it is always taken. We took it, it was not given to us, King George did everything he could to prevent it. Yes we had help, however it was us that began and sacrificed for it.If any other country had initiated and been responsible for our revolution we would be part of that country and not Americans. It would also not been a revolution but a fight between bigger nations for another colony. We picked whom we thought should be the leader, and he wasn't even living in Iraq. He was holed up in America being a chicken $hit. Instead of building a coalition within the country to overthrow the leader we installed , he was here persuading the washington pinheads to put our kids lives on the line. That escapes any resemblance of a Revolutionary stand for Freedom. In fact it would be the opposite.
If any one worldwide wants to go and fight in Iraq, I encourage them to LIVE their beliefs and not make others do it. I also believe in mercenary forces, those were what helped us so many years ago. If you want to fight for what you believe in go and become a mercenary and be reponsible for YOUR actions. Don't force the rest of the citizens to fund and approve your BELIEF. I don't make anyone approve mine, this is America. It's when any group compels the rest to act and pay for something that was never justified on a defensive level that these types of divides are created. That is what the initial post was called "THe cost....". Under the British rule which we railed against, the King decided where the military would be used and for what reasons and the people just paid for it with little/no input. It is that exact perpetual funding of aggression that our forefathers discarded and attempted with the Constitution to prevent here. As the Constitution becomes an obstacle to politicos doing what they wish, this will happen more and more often. When the dollar is worth negative value, and their retirements are worthless maybe they will wake up...I doubt it though.

 

[Howard Jones]

This war against the Muslims is going to really get ugly before it's over. If we can count the dead in the hundreds of thousands we are going to be lucky. More than likely it's going to make WW2 look like a girl scout picnic..

I guess that I should qualify this. I mean this is a war against Muslims in the same way that WW2 was against Germans and Japanese. Of course everyone in the Muslim religion is not our enemy but I fear that if the Muslim world doesnt do something about the radical crazes in their world the same sort of thing is going to happen to them as did the Germans in Germany who were not Nazis or the Japanese people who were the victims of the militarists in Japan.

The rest of the world will only have a limited amount of patience with the Muslim world. If they (Muslims) allow the rest of the world to believe that they are ALL the problem then it will indeed get very ugly.

I think that that is the point in Iraq. Build a center of gravity in the middle east where normal people who only want to live their lives in peace and freedom (their definition as long as it includes the rest of the worlds right to not be Muslim) can begin to influence the rest of the Muslim world in a way that results in peace like the occupation of Germany and Japan did after WW2.

I might be wrong about this but if the crazes in the middle east are left to fill the vacuum that results because the west leaves then how do you think that is going to result in peace.

The progress so far has been costly. Of course it has, Who didn't think it would? As I watched the twin towers fall I never would have been convinced that that would be the only attack in the US in the next 6 years. We should thank the men and women of the Armed Forces that have been responsible for that. The fact that we are fighting in Al Queda back yard is the reason we are not pulling children out of burning buses here.

I know some of you don't believe that, but I'll be damned if I want to take a chance on leaving them alone and hoping for a good outcome.

Winning will be when the Muslim world takes responsibility for policing their own crazes and does so to the extent that the rest of the world believes that we are relatively safe from people like Ben Laden. Until then we will have to. Whatever the cost.

 

[JohnC]

Cheers Gregg, I'll send you a postcard once I'm settled in. I'm fully expecting a "meet & greet" squad of the boys in blue when I reenter the US @ BUSH Intercontinental. At least I have three weeks of "relative" peace & safety in this "terrorist" infested Sahara desert.

Howard thanks for your earlier clarification on "us" lefties, I'll add it to the mix. Now we're branded as flaming liberal, pinko commie, Bush hating, atheistic FAGGOTS. I can really FEEL the love coming across, mate; hugs & kisses back atcha.

Faili, there's a lot to like about your culture, else I wouldn't have stayed in North Africa for the last 15 years. I'm not Muslim, but I'd like to think we worship the same God, if not the same prophet. I've had dinner in Muslim homes, attended Muslim weddings and funerals, and my Muslim friends have certainly shared my ups & downs. I can't say that slitting sheeps' throats for the Eid trips my trigger, but we have our own weird customs too, like killing perfectly good pine trees, and putting them in our living rooms for a month.

انه لا إله إلا الله ويسوع ومحمد علي حد سواء هي بلدة الانبياء.​

And here's a good oneliner for all of us to think about: “Nothing in this world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance or conscientious stupidity.”
- Martin Luther King

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Well said Mr. Lowe.:dead:

 

[Gregg]

Howard thanks for your earlier clarification on "us" lefties, I'll add it to the mix. Now we're branded as flaming liberal, pinko commie, Bush hating, atheistic FAGGOTS. I can really FEEL the love coming across, mate; hugs & kisses back atcha.

I can't say that slitting sheeps' throats for the Eid trips my trigger, but we have our own weird customs too, like killing perfectly good pine trees, and putting them in our living rooms for a month.

John, I think you have now officially offended all of the sheep lovers on this forum! Why did you have to bring more upon yourself????

 

John C, Praise be upon thee my brother. My apologies for not realizing your posts come from the land of the dreaded, evil, horrid Muslims  I am honored and humbled to know, you do know there is a world out there. I remember the sheep slitting, I didn’t like it back then either. But hell, we had to kill it before we could eat it.

Howard, I only wish your knowledge of other people/cultures was as good as your GT body work, sadly it is NOT. All you have to do is go to a public library.

,,,,,, “if the Muslim world doesn’t do something about the radical crazes in their world”

It is kinda like saying,,,if the black community does not do something about the Bloods and Crips,,,, ,,,,,

If you treat everyone in the black community as a gangster, well, all you will be doing is helping the bloods and Crips

 

[Howard Jones]

Yap, That's it my brother. The black community SHOULD do something about the bloods and the crypts. Even if it's call the cops when they see someone selling crack to kids. By the way that's just what is happening in some black communities around the country. It works. People get tired be lumped in with Gangsters and DO something about it.

If I remember correctly the moms in Northern Ireland had something to do with the reduction in violence there.

I'm not saying it is going to be easy or happen overnight, but at some point people will just have to stand up and fight. People are going to get killed for sure. Maybe a lot. But in the end the gangster's are outnumbered if the good people stand in the door.

I know that it's more or less 1% of the people who are the killers and evil. But if the victims want to stop being victims then they will need to fight. I also believe that the other countries in the world that are in a position to help must when the time comes.