Electric water pump

[JohnC]

Bill, I would like to take block temperature readings with different volume pumps. I would bet that a lower volume pump extracts as much heat as a higher volume. After all its the time the heat is absorbed into the coolant and extracted that counts isn't it? The slower the water flows the more the heat is extracted?

Jack, the simplified heat transfer formula is Btu/hr = 500*GPM*deltaT, so a lower volume pump can transfer as much heat as a high volume, but with a higher deltaT. However, for engine cooling, we don't want a high deltaT between the top & bottom of the engine or the radiator, in order to minimise thermal shock. So you're "safer" running a higher volume and a lower deltaT, and your engine and radiator will thank you for it.

(Also, BTW, and completely off topic, that voltage divider circuit for the Hall Effect worked a treat, but unfortunately we found that the EDIS ignition definitely does not work with Hall Effect sensors, and needs a VR. Thanks again for the assist!)

 

[Randy V]

I think the key to keeping your engine cool is the bypass thermostat which Randy has pictures of, by the way thats some nice aluminum welding Randy, how did you keep that bypass thermostat from blowing up?

My cousin Mike did the welding on it Jack. He just did small stitches a little at a time.

My Aluminum welding skills are no-where near what his are...

His website is here: http://www.kuhnsautospecialties.com

 

[Woody]

Randy
With your bypass thermostat do you also run the conventional thermostat in the engine and what size are the inlet and outlet pipes that run from the engine to the radiator.
I think Jack has a valid point I have seen thermostats removed from engines and then they run hot. There is a point where the water runs too fast through the system and doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to cool properly. So if its a 19gpm Moroso or a 55 gpm Meziere the flow is governed by the thermostat to an extent. I'm sure there is a magic number in there somewhere.:huh:
Any thoughts

 

[Russ Noble]

There is a point where the water runs too fast through the system and doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to cool properly.
Any thoughts

Sorry to disagree with you Woody, but that is a commonly held fallacy. By the same token the water spends less time in the engine so has proportionately less heat to get rid of per cycle. In actual fact the overheating is caused by the loss of the pressure gradient throughout the engine leading to localised hot spots. A restrictor plate of around 3/4" diameter in place of the thermostat is usually sufficient to restore the pressure gradient, and eliminate any overheating.

 

[Randy V]

Randy
With your bypass thermostat do you also run the conventional thermostat in the engine and what size are the inlet and outlet pipes that run from the engine to the radiator.
I think Jack has a valid point I have seen thermostats removed from engines and then they run hot. There is a point where the water runs too fast through the system and doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to cool properly. So if its a 19gpm Moroso or a 55 gpm Meziere the flow is governed by the thermostat to an extent. I'm sure there is a magic number in there somewhere.:huh:
Any thoughts

Hi Pete,

I am not running a Thermostat back at the engine. The Thermostat is up front (pictured below) and has a Bypass Port built in. The unit is from BMW and has extensions welded to it that adapt 1.25" to 1.5". The coolant lines to the rear of the car travel through the spine of the car and they are 1.5"
The connections from those ports to the engine are AN-16 as used in NASCAR engines.

I'm not a fluid dynamics or physics expert so I can't comment on the fluid moving too quickly to pick up heat other than to say that I believe the oil temperature would also rise in the engine (if it were overheating) and I've not yet seen that in engines where the flow was great and restriction was small or non-existant.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

Just as an aside, I noticed that Car Builder Solutions here in the UK do one of these now in 78 and 80 degree. BY-PASS THERMOSTAT 78 deg BYST78

 

[Jack Houpe]

I run the same set up as Randy in the front of my car, having the thermostat bypass water back to the engine allows you to remove the problematic bypass hose that goes between the pump and the intake manifold.

Very nice Brett, I would like to make housings for bypass thermostats that could have multiple variations of in, out and bypass, so a person could just turn the pipes to meet up with plumbing rather than have to have a mess of hoses and bends. I made my housing using my mill, it works perfect.

 

[Randy V]

Jack - You did an excellent job on your housing.. You probably told me before and I forgot - what kind of Thermostat do you use inside the housing? The one in my BMW housing seals off the radiator port when in Bypass (cold) and visa-versa when hot.

 

[Russ Noble]

I believe the oil temperature would also rise in the engine (if it were overheating) and I've not yet seen that in engines where the flow was great and restriction was small or non-existant.

Probably right, but were those engines overheating? I've never personally experienced an engine overheating due to removal of the thermostat, but apparently it does happen and the loss of pressure gradient is the reason. It may only apply to particular head/water flow configurations in certain motors.....

 

[Jack Houpe]

Jack - You did an excellent job on your housing.. You probably told me before and I forgot - what kind of Thermostat do you use inside the housing? The one in my BMW housing seals off the radiator port when in Bypass (cold) and visa-versa when hot.

Randy its the insides of the BMW bypass thermostat, I took it apart and made my own housing to reduce the amount of plumbing.

 

[Randy V]

Thanks Jack! My memory is for the birds these days... And I hear it's not going to get much better any time soon...

----

On the topic of remote water pumps - I see Jack's water heater lines and I'm planning on something similar.
I had thought about another smaller pump to force circulation, but am not sure it's really required.
So - for now - I am welding in a bung on my 1.5" tube coming from the engine which will run to a 5/8" heater hose (heater input).
And another bung on my Bypass elbow (Y) for the suction side of the electric water pump. This second bung will accomodate a 1/2" heater hose (heater output)..

 

[Woody]

Thanks for the photos and the info Randy.
Russ thanks for the input and you have a valid point. What I was getting at was there must be a certian size pump that is big enough to get the job done. Everybodys application is different given that a shoping basket does not produce the heat of a racecar. Just that there is a lot of variations in pump size just within this thread

 

[Woody]

Hi guys
Iv'e serched the net and now I'm sold on the 55gpm Meziere pump. I have e-mailed back and forth to Don Meziere, He was very helpfull and a gentleman to boot. However he doesn't ship over seas and by the time it goes through a handfull of middle men it got very expensive.
Can anyone tell me of a contact in USA who sells them.
Any help would be appreciated.
Woody.

 

[Brett James-McCall]

Summit/Jegs

 

[Bill Musarra]

Pete,
Just get someone here in the states to ship it to, and they can forward it on to you. Your only extra expense is the shipping fees.

Bill

 

[Woody]

Thanks Guys
Bill I will try Bretts Idea of Summit and Jegs before I impose on anyones time. Thanks again

 

[Bill Musarra]

Along with my electric pump, I have installed lighted toggle switches. The ones that are paddle shaped with the light in the tip of the paddle only. Here is a variation of the switch. Basically the same switch.

I kept noticing that some of them would not light and some would. That got me to searching the web to see what I was doing wrong. I discovered that for them to light up the Acc has to have a load on it, or go to the accessory that was being controlled. These switches are rated at various amperages and can work without a relay if needed. I just like the safety factor. So the wiring had to be redone in the dash, as I had wired the switches off the ground of the relays. Most wiring diagrams will show the grounds as the way to wire the switch(usually SPST switches) which allows you to wire the ground to the switch, and also to the thermostat. With these you can't.
This created a bigger problem in that I wanted the water pump and the front fans to run off a switch and a thermostat. The thermostat would serve to turn the pump on even if I forgot to flip the switch. I also want to have the pump and fans run on for 2-3 minutes after shut down, but that's another story.
I have come up with an idea of how to wire them. Just want to see if anyone had a suggestion or thought they wouldn't work this way. All my relays ar SPDT relays that have a 5th wire on them. If you remove the 87A wire, it acts like a SPST.
When coil(85 and 86 post) is not energized the power runs from the bottom imput post(30 post) to the middle post(87A). When energized, from the 30 post to the 87 post.

So I came up with the following drawing for the way to make it work. Does anyone see anything wrong with it??

Bill

 

[Jason Lycett]

Simon

I have this exact waterpump on my car . The pump seems to work well. However it is an awful design ,This is because the main outlet comes out of the pump body at the wrong angle. This means that when you screw in the pipe adaptor into the pump,it is impossible to put a hose on to the end of it because it fouls the crankshaft damper!. It's such a poor piece of engineering its laughable. I had to purchase an extension adaptor from Mezziere to allow me to get a hose on it. I rang Proform to complain but they were pretty useless and admitted you need the extension adaptor from their competitor to make it work!

 

[Bill Musarra]

I "plan" to have my car on the road in a week or two. So will be able to give better results then. With the crank ups with the car on the jack stands the temp holds pretty good. But that is without any loads, so we will have to wait til then to know.
After seeing Randy's thermostat setup, I thought I would use a thermostat in line if my pump was OK or if I had to get a larger output pump later on. Well I am not able to do the welding like Randy did so I looked elsewhere. I noticed on Terry Oxandales build log that he was using a thermostat. After several emails to him, I went to a local junk yard and for $5 found a 95 Contour that looks like it will fit the bill without the welding.

I cleaned it up and reversed the neck so it is aimed toward the radiator. If my pump holds up to the road use I will probably install it. Just have to make a Y connection with some piping for the bypass line to the pump. If the pump doesn't hold up to the loads, I will get a higher output unit. I have installed a run-on relay to my rear clip fans. If that works out well I will add one to the pump/fans as well.

Bill

 

[Randy V]

great find on that T-Stat housing Bill! That would have saved a bunch of work!