Guns, pros and cons!

[Roark_John]

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns, that will make it easy to identify them! Very strong laws would stop most possession.

Sure people could make there own, but most can't/won't. The typical angry/drunk shooting that kills so many would most likely not happen.

Name ONE law that has ever been passed that has eliminated crime or prevented crime. Just ONE...surely you can do that?

 

[Roark_John]

John,

Jim's point is a valid one, and you are hoisted on your own petard.

So when Jim gets emotional and makes a blanket statement, it's a valid point. When it's assumed that I'm getting emotional and make a pointed statement, I'm hoisted on my own petard? Wow...I'll get back to you when I've managed to wrap my mind around that one...

Guns make it too clean and easy to kill. If all the guy had to hand was a screwdriver, then Jim's friend would more than likely be alive now. Ditto a knife. It is a lot harder to look someone in the eyes whilst struggling to stab them than it is to pull a trigger from a distance.

Too clean and easy to kill? That's alot of power that you're foisting on a gun. It's not a magic wand, that undoes morals & ethics with a single wave, or makes a marksman of an average citizen, it's a mechanical device, a tool. That's akin to saying that owning a computer makes me a hacker. Anyone who has ever hunted, shot competitively or even had to qualify at the gun range can tell you differently. But what do we know...we're evil gun-toting wackjobs with mystical targeting skins divined by our boomsticks...

You have to give ground on the fact that although the gun is an inanimate object, and although the person pulling the trigger IS the killer, it is the weapon that facilitates the death of someone, and with a gun it is SO much easier.

Yes and Cain slew Abel with a rock. That lady drowned her kids with a station wagon. Mao and Stalin used starvation. I fail to see how blaming guns makes the world a better place.

Graham.

I'm not the Great Debator or Grand Orator, but I understand how to frame an idea and present it effectively for understanding by even the most rudimentary means...and I still haven't yet been able to wrap my mind around how some of these arguments have merit for anything other than a power grab?

 

[Roark_John]

The impression I get from John, and I maybe wrong. is that he does not believe anyone else has the right to decide who can or cannot bear arms.

Gun ownership is an INALIENABLE right according to our Constitution. If you believe in the concept and execution of rights, you cannot believe in violating those rights. Ergo, only someone who believes in violating rights believes they have the right to decide what someone else can or cannot do. Which makes that "right to decide" tyrannical, oppressive and criminal. I don't cater to criminals, and I certainly don't cater to tyrants. Can I make myself any clearer?

John you have claimed I have no common sense, which implies you must feel you do, you have proudly proclaimed your military background. So faced with an angry aggressive assailant meaning to do you harm, and with your common sense and military training in mind would you rather they had a screwdriver or a gun?

You really have no concept what a soldier does in their daily duties, do you? We are faced daily with rude, surly people who are angry (rightfully so) about us being in their country. We are also faced daily with people who SHOOT AT US, TRY TO BLOW US UP and OTHERWISE KILL US.

I was stabbed in Bosnia. Were it not for my flack-jacket, I wouldn't be here today. The jacket caused the knife to snap at the hilt, and I took 3 broken ribs and had the wind knocked out of me.

I've been shot at countless times and thankfully haven't been hit yet. I have seen people who have been shot and I helped take care of them until they were able to be Medevac'd.

Based on the shooting skill-set I have seen among many "freedom fighters" and "gun enthusiasts", I would much rather they have a gun than a knife, because I'm less likely to be shot the first several times they pull the trigger, but if they are close enough to stab me, even if it's not fatal, it will wound me.

That is my honest professional opinion. Granted, I would much rather have a bullet-proof vest with ballistic plates in either situation!

 

[Graham]

I'm not the Great Debator or Grand Orator, but I understand how to frame an idea and present it effectively for understanding by even the most rudimentary means...and I still haven't yet been able to wrap my mind around how some of these arguments have merit for anything other than a power grab?

John,

Then frankly you are less intelligent than I gave you credit for.

Don't pull bible crap on me. The gun expedites the killing of someone far more efficiently than other cruder devices?

It's a simple yes or no.

Go on, try it for size. As Nick says, this is about the pro's as well as the con's of guns. Take a shot at redemption and try to meet me partway. If you can't then you really are incredibly blinkered.

Graham.

 

[Roark_John]

Converse: Why is it that if conservatives like something, everyone else has to take part in it too? (Yes, I'm talking about religion. Conservative politicians cannot stop bringing it up and plenty of others try and paint non-religious people as bad and immoral. Kind of counter to what their religion is supposed to teach them by the way...)

That's not really a fair argument, Chris. I don't believe anyone on this forum has at any point insisted that everyone has to own guns and use them...

As to religion, I grant you that, only on that one subject. I'm an atheist (yes, even after seeing combat 5 times) and it's a sore subject even in the military...

 

[Roark_John]

John,

Then frankly you are less intelligent than I gave you credit for.

Don't pull bible crap on me. The gun expedites the killing of someone far more efficiently than other cruder devices?

Yes it does. That was even one of my own personal points, several pages back on this same forum.

It's a simple yes or no.

Go on, try it for size. As Nick says, this is about the pro's as well as the con's of guns. Take a shot at redemption and try to meet me partway. If you can't then you really are incredibly blinkered.

Graham.

The fact that a gun can be used to kill efficiently (only by PEOPLE!) has NAUGHT to do with violating somebody's rights in the interests of "public welfare & safety" when those very same "evil objects" will be used BY the government to enforce those laws and other policies! It's as if the government workforce weren't drawn from the public body, as if all members of government were superior to us lesser people, as if our own authority to bestow authority on those representing us nullifies our original authority to begin with!

It's a fucking bizarre argument, made knowingly that people are imperfect creatures, with imperfect decsions, that anyone would willingly ignore those imperfections and put themselves at the mercy of other imperfect people, simply because they would choose to give up any leverage they have to protect themselves and their way of life from anybody else who would choose to play by a different set of rules...

 

[Pat]

All right, time to come clean, which of you fired the missile off the coast of San Diego??
Has to be some crazed conservative right-wing, Beck listening, Bush voting, gun owning, veteran who goes to church and supports the constitution as written.

 

[Roark_John]

Posted by John

John, I'd be happy to compare my place in life and mentality to you any time!

Are you an elitist Jim? Because that taunting snobbery reeks of elitism...as if marrying up somehow elevated you to a position above those around you.

I am where I am today, because I choose to be here. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished in my life is because I alone have earned it.

You cannot do what I already do, though I bet you every last dime of your wealth that I can easily do what you do

 

[Graham]

All right, time to come clean, which of you fired the missile off the coast of San Diego??
Has to be some crazed conservative right-wing, Beck listening, Bush voting, gun owning, veteran who goes to church and supports the constitution as written.

Veek,


That made me chuckle. Nice one

 

[Roark_John]

Ok guys, no one has addressed my question. How do you propose to take guns away from the owning public?

I don't propose to take guns away from the public. I'm not in favor of violating someone's inalienable rights.

As it stands, there are only 3 ways that can happen today.

1. is ever-tightening laws, regulations and restrictions until the general populace is not able to meet the requirements to maintain legal ownership of their guns...

2. is passing an Amendment rescinding the 2nd Amendment.

3. is if the government goes extra-legal and commits to martial law or massive gun-sweeps, taking guns from owners at gun-point

 

[Nick]

You really have no concept what a soldier does in their daily duties, do you? .

John,

As I work daily with former members of the British Army, Navy and Royal Air force who often talk about their experiences in the services, I believe I do.

Based on the shooting skill-set I have seen among many "freedom fighters" and "gun enthusiasts", I would much rather they have a gun than a knife, because I'm less likely to be shot the first several times they pull the trigger, but if they are close enough to stab me, even if it's not fatal, it will wound me.[/COLOR]

That is my honest professional opinion. Granted, I would much rather have a bullet-proof vest with ballistic plates in either situation!

John,

I was talking about facing a civilian with a knife or gun but, why because he has a gun does he have to move further away than if he had a knife.

 

[Nick]

Are you an elitist Jim? Because that taunting snobbery reeks of elitism...as if marrying up somehow elevated you to a position above those around you.

John,

Way off topic again but an interesting response from you. To me Jim provided a remarkabley restrained response to your.

"FUCK...you are a dense man, Jim. I don't know how you have made it very far in life with that mentality"

Manners maketh man.
Motto of Winchester College and New College, Oxford
It is by politeness, etiquette and charity that society is saved from falling into a heap of savagery.

 

[Chris P.]

That's not really a fair argument, Chris. I don't believe anyone on this forum has at any point insisted that everyone has to own guns and use them...

You're right - just for the record though, I wasn't trying to make that connection; I was off on the conservative / liberal tangent in general (as much as I hate it, as does probably everyone else here.)

Also for the record - I am not for taking gun rights away from people. There is too much at stake there. I do believe that the gun is useless without a person behind the trigger, but I also believe that the gun is a relatively simple, inexpensive, readily available, and extremely effective weapon of choice for someone who a) wants to use it or b) is too unstable to be trusted with. I do think it can abnormally escalate an encounter to a more deadly realm in an alarmingly quick manner too, whether consciously or not. I don't know what to do about that. That's not my job though - I'm an engineer.

I live in a very rural setting. I have never owned a gun, but I have considered it living out here where we can't even see a neighbor from our own house.

 

[Roark_John]

John,
Manners maketh man.
Motto of Winchester College and New College, Oxford
It is by politeness, etiquette and charity that society is saved from falling into a heap of savagery.

Says the man who fairly snarled and snapped at me in earlier posts, hinting at but restraining himself from quite calling me a vigilante and potential snapcase...

That's exactly my point with "libs", its always a case of hypocrisy with you guys...Do as I say, not as I do...I know better than you...yada, yada, yada.

It's fucking annoying. It's also a good way to get your ass kicked if you were to actually wade into a situation in real-life and attempt to "grab the reins" as you are wont to do...

I have yet to see anything even approaching manners from Jim since he entered this topic...I'm not Jesus, I don't turn the other cheek and try to act "better" than someone else, I give as good as I get. I'm blunt and to the point. If that hurts your feelings, don't leave them out in the road to get ran over...

 

[Roark_John]

John,

As I work daily with former members of the British Army, Navy and Royal Air force who often talk about their experiences in the services, I believe I do.



John,

I was talking about facing a civilian with a knife or gun but, why because he has a gun does he have to move further away than if he had a knife.

Holy Jesus...you pointed out that using a gun makes it easier to use from a distance...I was just following up with that logic!

If a person had a pistol or a rifle, they are detectable from a distance...guns are bulky...you would know this if you had even a passing familiarity with them...so I wouldn't stay out in the open with an unstable gunman approaching. Common freakin' sense...

Are you seriously debating personal combat with me? I wouldn't want to fight someone with a knife unless I ABSOLUTELY have to...knives are extremely dangerous, even without the person having a background in knife-fighting. It's way too easy to get cut or stuck with one. I'm not going to struggle with someone like that, I'm going to put distance between us so I can either shoot him or find something long, sharp and heavy to lodge in his throat.

 

[Keith]

You really have no concept what a soldier does in their daily duties, do you? We are faced daily with rude, surly people who are angry (rightfully so) about us being in their country. We are also faced daily with people who SHOOT AT US, TRY TO BLOW US UP and OTHERWISE KILL US.

And that is just in Texas :laugh:

By the way have you noticed I haven't commented much on this gun thing - which I find interesting even if none of you do. White people do not often get shot in the United Kingdom, but then I've always been a bit different.

I'm sure some you guys may have been similarly injured, possibly in the line of duty, but let it happen to you in an extremely unexpected manner, in a situation and a place that you have total control over, and the threat forms no part of your conciousness and then see how you feel about guns to say nothing of the life changing injuries both physical and mental. I would take on a knife ANY day.

Most guys don't know how to use them anyway and are a mostly a danger to themselves - most people attacked by knives are under cover of a melee of some kind.

With a gun - no chance. I promise not to comment further - as it is a tad painful to recall...

Please please guys try and be civil to each other. I'm sure that if we all met in a bar we'd have a few beers and get along fine.... and then we could all go outside and kick the crap out of each other....

 

[Jack]

Keith,
Mostly in Texas, Arizona and Nevada...

I'm with John on this one though. Force multiplication at a distance can't be beat when necessary.

 

[Keith]

Crikey Jack, you posted a reply before i finished typing!

"Force multiplication at a distance"

Distance? We don't have any! :laugh:

You must always remember that the vast majority of citizens (sorry, subjects) in the UK have never seen a gun let alone born them, and then only in the armed forces and clay pigeon shooting and the like. They've never formed part of our 'peace-keeping' philosophy at least since the 17th century anyway.

The Home Guard (Militia) in WWII only had one rifle per 20 men - the rest had pitch forks and axes, which is probablty why the Germans were too terrified to land here...

 

[Jim Craik]

FUCK...you are a dense man, Jim. I don't know how you have made it very far in life with that mentality.

Posted by Wyld

I then posted this...........

John, I'd be happy to compare my place in life and mentality to you any time!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

You then replied..............

Are you an elitist Jim? Because that taunting snobbery reeks of elitism...as if marrying up somehow elevated you to a position above those around you.

Also posted by Wyld

My comment was in reply to your first quote, you called me dense and questioned my mentality. Now you call me an elitist.

What does my wife have to do with you or this discussion? When you grow up and are done calling people names, please give a reply to this post.

 

[Jim Craik]

Are you an elitist Jim? Because that taunting snobbery reeks of elitism...as if marrying up somehow elevated you to a position above those around you.

I am where I am today, because I choose to be here. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished in my life is because I alone have earned it.

You cannot do what I already do, though I bet you every last dime of your wealth that I can easily do what you do <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Posted by wyld

Listen you ASSHOLE, I just got home and read the above post in full, You FUCKING LITTLE PRICK, you leave my wife OUT OF THIS Discussion, on your best day you could not carry her laundry!!!!

Yes she is very very sucessfull and once or twice she has made more $ than I in a given year. But year in and year out I make more. I have run my own business since before we were married, have several employees (at leat one Republican) and make mid six figures!

I get paid mid six figures for my opinion, that's right people line up to pay for my opinion! They are happy to pay and do not care about my spelling!

So if you can do that show us, otherwise shut the fuck up you little prick!