have any of you guys ever had to throwdown?

[Cliff Beer]

If you have to fight (defending/protecting your wife/kids/yourself/property) then do it quick and hard and fast. No need for "smack talk" or puffing. If it's not necessary...just blown up egos and some alcohol....then walk away, there's nothing good that can come of it.

There was a guy in my fraternity in college who was a sprinter and soccer player....medium height, medium build, but very fast....he was absolutely devastating in those situations because he wouldn't say a thing and just come out of nowhere with his fists flying. Guys twice his size would go down in a heap on the first punch or two. Consequently, guys like me never had to throw a punch (which I was glad for...).

 

[Dave Lindemann]

Love your sense of humour Jeff.:laugh:
Personally I have never lost a fight, I've won most of them by at least 200 yards.
I too have been trained by the military, and have the skills but will always walk or run away whenever possible. One punch can kill and you ruin your life and your family's lives as well as the victims. It's worth swallowing some pride to protect them from that.

Pete - Very well said, just because you "can" does not mean that you "should". My instructor (I was not trained by the military) always taught that it is best to stay away from situations that could lead to violence. He also taught that if violence is thrust upon you - even though you have done everything to prevent it - that the aggressor should be incapacitated (non-lethal) with one strike, but ONLY in self defense or the defense of another.

Dave L

 

[John Milmont]

So I'm really glad that it didn't come down to fighting and that my buddies stepped in and stopped everything. But, I did learn a little more about my would-be opponent. He seems like a real class act. In and out of jail, furniture salesman (no offence if this is what you do, but you know the 'slick guy salesman' type); he would steal candy from a baby if given the chance. Its amazing how I can find a poser like this in a civilized crowd.
You know, with these types of situations there's always a women involved. It turns out that this guy might have had some sort of relations with said women in the past. I had no idea of this at the time. Knowing this now makes me glad I didn't fight this guy. He wasn't worth it at all.

 

[Roark_John]

I realize we're not barbarians, but it's ridiculous for people to suggest that violence doesn't solve anything. To suggest otherwise is to deny the benefits derived from violence throughout history...unless people think that Nazism SHOULD have been allowed to flourish uncontested?

Truth be told, leaving violence to thugs & criminals or police & soldiers only guarantees that good, decent people caught in the middle will forever be victims.

I don't advocate fighting out of ego or pride, but I do advocate natural justice. Cops are only minutes away when seconds count...nobody cares about your life & the lives of your loved ones more than YOU do. So remember that and train as if your life depends on it...someday it might.

I don't know about any of you, but I'd rather go down swinging than go down without a fight. I'm long grown out of the horseplay mentality or showing off to prove myself...but if any person puts hands on me or threatens me with a weapon, I do not & have not hesitated to incapacitate that person with impunity.

I didn't train in the martial arts or participate on the US Army H2H combat team simply to have a skill to show off...it was to learn a method of offense & defense that wasn't based on using firearms. I don't ever want to be in a position where I'm unarmed and my assailant isn't.

Does this mean that I'm crazy enough to face off with a guy with a gun while I'm barehanded? Not unless I'm backed into a corner and facing the potential of a slow bleed-out. In that case I will put all of my focus and energy on debilitating that sad-sack and then putting him out of my misery with his own weapon.

It's a better scenario in my mind to go out fighting than go out cowering in fear...the scumbags win twice with the second option.

I think we do our society a great dis-service by allowing the thug mentality to flourish, while encouraging our decent members to shun violence...cops can only address a situation once it has become a crime, and then the matter is left in the hands of the DA & the judge. I'm not advocating a return of the Wild West, but I remember a time when bullies got their asses whipped on the playground when they pushed people too hard & too far.

I don't think our society has gotten better with the advent of "it's not my business, so I won't get involved...that's somebody else's responsibility". Last time I checked, we ALL were a part of society and our morals & values were reflected in what that society allows & supports. I don't want my kids & grandkids being afraid to stand up for what's right, or standing up for themselves. What kind of society would that be?

 

[Nick]

John,

I think you may have missed the point, violence would not of solved anything in this case.

"So i just got back from a new years party that got a little out of hand. Long story short, there was a major douche bag that no one likes that was rubbing me the wrong way"

 

[Jeff Young]

Actually, he is advocating a return to a Wild West mentality -- but he's intimately familiar with violence, remember that.

 

[Graham]

Actually, he is advocating a return to a Wild West mentality -- but he's intimately familiar with violence, remember that.

YEE-HAW!

The situation didn't (as described) need violence IMO. The right action was taken and no harm done. The world is full of arseholes, but one man's arsehole is another man's friend, and so the world goes around....

John, I think you may have missed the point here, or are you advocating that the guy should have had a knuckle sandwich?

Graham.

 

[Jeff Young]

Plus the whole Nazi analogy is so full of bogus it's difficult to start to deconstruct it. Do we as a society tolerate mass genocide? NO. Do we go to war to stop it? YES.

Do we as individuals take a swing at the first person who tries to bully or intimidate us?

Well, I guess some of us do.

 

[Dave]

If I was you that night, I would of smashed my beer bottle on the bar and glassed the fcker. Seems to be all the rage here in West Australia.

 

[John Fitzpatrick]

I'll just contribute what I was taught in unarmed combat 45 years ago by a Gunnery Sergent on loan to the AF.
"If you've got a gun, you shoot your man.
If you've got a knife, slash him.
If you've got a stick, club him.
If you've got a rock, throw it.
If you aint got nothin, run like hell, but if you're cornered and can't run, then you fight dirty like I'm a fixin' to show ya."

What followed was a week long demonstration in eye-gouging, throat-biting, and neck-breaking, followed by the stern admonition not to get in a bar fight unless you intended to kill someone.
That would be my advice too.

 

[Jack]

Good advice there John!

 

[Roark_John]

Plus the whole Nazi analogy is so full of bogus it's difficult to start to deconstruct it. Do we as a society tolerate mass genocide? NO. Do we go to war to stop it? YES.

Do we as individuals take a swing at the first person who tries to bully or intimidate us?

Well, I guess some of us do.

Nazi's were first & foremost thugs, albeit thugs with authority. If you would care to stop indulging in revisionist history, you would know that the US didn't get involved in WWII to assuage the threat of genocide, but rather to stop the march of an aggressive political philosophy. Fact is, little was known as to the breadth & depth of the extermination of homosexuals, gypsies, intellectuals, Jews and other "undesirables" under the Nazi regime until after the war was over.

You're an assumptive individual with a great deal of arrogance. I'm not easily intimidated or bullied, so I have no need to "throwdown" with blustering twits. However I have no qualm getting involved when I see someone intimidating or threatening others who are not of the violent persuasion. But then, I guess I'm an asshole for doing so, since I'm not a cop?

Have you ever killed someone? If you have ever served in a combat situation for your country, you too would be intimately familiar with violence...not just handing it out, but seeing it happen to yourself, friends & colleagues. If that doesn't color your viewpoint of the world, you are a jaded & cynical sociopath. Being intimately familiar with violence doesn't make one a warmonger or barbarian...it means that you have seen the path of destruction that it carries in it's wake...both for the perpetrator and the victim.

Violence is part of the natural world. Have you ever seen a cougar, cheetah or lion take down it's prey? Or a pack of wolves? To deny that "civilized" people indulge in violence when words cease to have an effect is to deny reality. That is exactly why police officers and soldiers have weapons. We are a diplomatic tool. Too bad "civilized" people defer these responsibilities to us, rather than bearing them as part of their own responsibility for living in a "civilized" world.

Is it better to whip a bully's ass when he gets out of line, or wait til he has massacred a bunch of innocents and give him the gas chamber? Pacifism is the word du-jour for cowardice in our society. Just remember that the American fighting-man was once somebody's neighbor and is somebody's son, uncle, father or cousin...those men who serve in uniform aren't vicious, mean-spirited people. Comparing them to thugs & criminals is showing your ignorance of the subject.

 

[Roark_John]

YEE-HAW!

The situation didn't (as described) need violence IMO. The right action was taken and no harm done. The world is full of arseholes, but one man's arsehole is another man's friend, and so the world goes around....

John, I think you may have missed the point here, or are you advocating that the guy should have had a knuckle sandwich?

Graham.

I don't think someone deserves to be beaten simply because someone else doesn't like their attitude or presence.

On the other hand, there are times when I think beating someone for an offense against society would cause them to adjust their own attitude & presence.

It's a situational thing. It's about balancing the norms of a society with the rights of an individual. It's not one person's right to go about intimidating others and suffer naught for it. Fining a person like that doesn't get it through their head that how they are acting is inappropriate, whereas knocking them on their ass causes that idea to sink in much faster.

If jail-time & fines were a sufficient deterrent to crime, there wouldn't be so many repeat offenders. Most of the cocksure assholes who think they are big-stuff, but aren't really criminals, simply need a dose of reality...that is to say, they need their ass handed to them, then they no longer have the desire to put on the pose.

 

[Jack]

John,
Balancing the norms of society is difficult when PC is the current sickening trend.
I'm all for handing some idiot their ass when necessary and I wouldn't hesitate to do so, but right now this society would reward the perp! Nuff said!

 

[Roark_John]

John,
Balancing the norms of society is difficult when PC is the current sickening trend.
I'm all for handing some idiot their ass when necessary and I wouldn't hesitate to do so, but right now this society would reward the perp! Nuff said!

Too true.

I just don't want people getting the idea that I and people like me go about looking for fights...we just don't back down in the presence of chumps with a belly-full and a bad attitude.

Fighting in general accomplishes nothing other than when used to stop the aggressive actions of another that would force their viewpoint on others. That kind of fighting is noble.

 

[Jeff Young]

Here's the thing. IN ALMOST ALL CASES, it's better not to fight in this situation. Drinking and thuggery (whether "noble" or not) don't mix. People get hurt. Sometimes ones who just happen to be there, and all the training you got in the National Guard is not going to prevent that.

In society -- not in war, not fighting Nazis, not in Iraq or Afghanistan, where different rules apply -- we as a group have decided that dealing with bullies, thugs and criminals should generaly be done in an organized fashion by those trained to do it. The police. Not El Bucko on a White Horse.

I'm not a pacifist. I'm a realist. I've seen too many of those situations end up bad for the participants, or others. Not worth it. Nor is it noble.

 

[Roark_John]

Here's the thing. IN ALMOST ALL CASES, it's better not to fight in this situation. Drinking and thuggery (whether "noble" or not) don't mix. People get hurt. Sometimes ones who just happen to be there, and all the training you got in the National Guard is not going to prevent that.

I wasn't trained in the National Guard...nice backhanded compliment by the way. You would be surprised what kind of training members of the military have access to...did you realize that some police officers, firemen and even doctors are also members of the National Guard? I was active duty Army before I became National Guard. And my martial arts training wasn't specifically derived from being in the military or because of the military. It was a personal choice to pursue.

In society -- not in war, not fighting Nazis, not in Iraq or Afghanistan, where different rules apply -- we as a group have decided that dealing with bullies, thugs and criminals should generaly be done in an organized fashion by those trained to do it. The police. Not El Bucko on a White Horse.

Your condescension is palpable. Do you honestly believe the police are trained so much better than the general public? That would explain all those brutality cases, corruption cases and examples of ineptitude that litter the newspapers every day of the week.

I'm not a pacifist. I'm a realist. I've seen too many of those situations end up bad for the participants, or others. Not worth it. Nor is it noble.

That's fine Jeff. If I ever see you, your wife or your kids being accosted by dumb punks, I will gladly walk past and let them do whatever they feel they have to to make themselves "men". That should be noble enough for you, since I'm qualified to fight in your place overseas, but not wearing the blue, I'm suddenly stripped of those abilities while at home.

Cheers to you and your viewpoint! You are the only one who knows best

 

[Jeff Young]

I would hope that you would walk on by. From your posts, I sincerely believe your involvement would only make things worse.

Yes, you are not a police officer here in the US. Yes, your military training is respected, we appreciate it. No, it does not allow you to enforce laws here in the US and quite honestly the fact that you seem to think it does is spooky.

 

[Roark_John]

I would hope that you would walk on by. From your posts, I sincerely believe your involvement would only make things worse.

Yes, you are not a police officer here in the US. Yes, your military training is respected, we appreciate it. No, it does not allow you to enforce laws here in the US and quite honestly the fact that you seem to think it does is spooky.

Ever heard of a citizen's arrest?

Ever heard of posse comitatus?

Ever heard of bystanders getting involved to prevent the commission of a crime?

I guess that only applies in situations that you don't agree with. Your beliefs don't constitute reality or the basis for how things are. I'm sorry that you don't think "unauthorized" citizens have any responsibility for the maintenance of their society.

Your continued insistence that your view of me is how I am is disturbing...that's precisely what I mean by arrogance. You have no god-like abilities. You only have your own mindset and that is NOT what the rest of the world shares.

I wish you the best in your sugar-castle fantasyland where Big Brother looks after your best interests, and all you have to concern yourself with is your endless sourcing of distractions. That is not how a RESPONSIBLE citizen lives.

Being a good citizen is not a part-time endeavor, it is a full-time lifestyle. It means being involved with all aspects of your society...education, employment, civic matters, politics, etc.

 

[Jeff Young]

It just gets better and better....round up the posse boys, Otis got into the corn liquor again and is causing trouble with folks at the saloon!