Oslo

[Jeff Young]

Grandstanding? Insensitivity?

The only insensivitiy I see here is a complete failure to recognize that some of the very same thoughts and ideas I see posted in this forum are what led to this tragedy.

Jeff many here have asked over and over respectfully to take it elsewhere. Any point you wanted to make has now been negated by your insistance on continued posting and insensitivity. This is a horrible tragedy not a time for grandstanding. I recently heard that the max sentence this person could recieve is 21 years yet another horrifying aspect.

 

[Jim Craik]

Guys,

I feel as bad an anyone and I'm also angry!

Honestly, if this had been a Muslim terrorist attack, would anyone here be saying, "lets not point fingers, lets not place blame, lets not be insensitive. We should just mourn the innocent victims..........................I didn't think so.

 

[Keith]

I give up.....

 

[JimmyMac]

I give up....

 

[Jim Craik]

Back a few months ago, there was a thread started by Martin.

It was called the "Moscow terrorist attack"

Martin was talking about the horror of the attack and how luckey he felt not to have been involved.

The thread immediatly went into Muslim attack mode, every one was glad Martin was safe, but there was very little if any sorrow or mourning for the victims.

No one asked for another thread, no one asked for a time to mourn. Just immediate attack and blame!

To be sure there is a double standard.

 

[Jeff Young]

Yes, exactly.

It's because this one requires to look inward, rather than outward, for the cause that we see the desire to avoid discussing it.

Honestly, if this had been a Muslim terrorist attack, would anyone here be saying, "lets not point fingers, lets not place blame, lets not be insensitive. We should just mourn the innocent victims..........................I didn't think so.

 

[David Morton]

I give up.

 

[Graham]

I give up....but only figuratively...

Jeff and Jim, It is by rising above those that we seek to be compared with that we separate ourselves and in doing so maintain our own dignity. Lowering or raising yourself to other peoples' levels does not.

 

[Jeff Young]

I'm sorry Graham, not coming at you either, I just don't see posting an idea in one thread versus another as some sort of morally superior way of discussing an issue.

I remain appalled at what happened in Norway.

I remain appalled at some of the anti-Muslim rhetoric I see posted here.

I see no reason not to point out in a thread acknowledging the tragedy in Norway that some of the very same thoughts and ideas that are posted here led to that very tragedy.

I give up....but only figuratively...

Jeff and Jim, It is by rising above those that we seek to be compared with that we separate ourselves and in doing so maintain our own dignity. Lowering or raising yourself to other peoples' levels does not.

 

[Jim Craik]

Jeff,

Have you noticed that folks here who immediatly go to the blame game whenever innocents are attacked, now just want to mourn.

They do not want fingers pointed, they do not want to place blame..................

I only remember one other time when folks here on the fourm felt strongly we should not point fingers, not place blame............

That was the other recent time liberals were shot in the name of hate..................Gabriella Giffords and the other innocent Arazona victims of hate talk!

Jeff this is probably just a coincidence

 

[Jeff Young]

I'd rather not call it placing blame or finger pointing. I think it just calls for some introspection.

I have bigoted thoughts. I think they are part of the human condition. Like Graham states above, the goal is to rise above them. And the first step in rising above them is to recognize they exist.

That said I fully agree that what is going on in this thread is, for the most part, a refusal to look inward because of the fear of what is there. So the response is just to call those who ask others to do that insensitive or grandstanding.

I'm a middle age white guy in a Western country. I sometimes get the jitters when I encounter Muslims on my aircraft, and had the initial reaction that probably everyone did when we first heard of the bombing in Oslo -- probably Muslim terrorists. And when it turned out it wasn't, I had to remind myself that we all have to work hard to shed that kind of preconception of things.

Including the police. The point of the article I posted was that in focusing so much (and in many cases rightfully so) on Muslim terrorist organizations, we have lost focus on other groups who are just as dangerous.

But more importantly, what scares me the most is that the seed of hate that grew into something all consuming in this young fellow from Norway who isn't that much different from me, or anyone here on this forum, is present in us all -- and that some of the very same ideas that this broken young man used to justify killing children at a camp are posted here as a part of anti-Islamic jokes, or even worse as "truth."

 

[just ernst]

i am speachless,...about what happend and about i must read around, in new´s, in forums, and hear in tv,.....
does any out knows what happend long ago??,....it was nazi-terror, okay?, and after the war??,...this people does not stop theyr idealismus and theyr thinking, they learn it to other one and to young-people,....i think we all know about, and they are all arount the world, in europa, in asia, in usa allso,....with different names, with different puplic-relation,....the are into politik, and lives all around us,......
and??,...noone makes a stop with this, noone has an idea against this,...and all tell´s us,....no fear from this side, look around!!!,...look how many people you know with this "right-thinking", look what propaganda is out,....and what happend in norway is the result,.....
we all are sad about, we all are in fear about what happens next week??, or tomorow??, or next year??,....how crazy could people get in this time??, and where are the people that can stopp this??,....
near 100 people must die because one idiot thinks to can change the world??
now i am realy in fear !!!!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

This thread started out as guys giving their condolences for a terrible act of violence in Norway. It was a irrational taking of life, if the need is felt to express political views, another thread should be used.

 

[Jim Craik]

Al you are right.

Please feel free to add your condolences.

 

[Jeff Young]

I was expressing my condolences and asking for some introspection on the causes of this tragedy. I don't believe that is "political" and I continue to think it entirely appropriate in this thread.

This thread started out as guys giving their condolences for a terrible act of violence in Norway. It was a irrational taking of life, if the need is felt to express political views, another thread should be used.

 

[Paolo-LoveGT40 Modelworks]

I am very often in Scandinavia, cause my wife is swedish.

For events as such one, I just would like to see applied also there the real, american, too cruel, death penalty (the one where u are forgotten for 20 yrs and u wake up every fucking morning thinking it will be the last 4 u).
No way to read of this asshold paying only 21 yrs in a super luxury and modern jail.No.
I want him in that nice holes in the american desert where u eneter and u exit only after many years boxed in a metal.
World uses to blaime americans for such penalty.I think is the only way to manage and end matters as these.

No mercy for such one, I just dont understand why the police didnt fired him at once.

I am too angry.Not the time for pray and so on.
Just want hime dead, in the worst way possible, as he did with so many other youngs.

Just I am sure if he did this to one of my family mates,wife son or daughter, I will spend the rest of my days only with the desire to place in his head a 44 magnum bullet.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Wrath? No, I'm just pointing out that some of the bias and bigotry on this board is the precursor to what happened in Oslo.

I've seen threads and posts like that from Domtoni, Morton, some guy named Wild, Al Wolhstrom, Pete, Veek, and others.

I know and have known Muslims all my life, starting with 9th grade when we had several come to my high school from Lebanon. Since then, I've been fortunate to have traveled some, including to Jordan, and have worked with many Iraqis as a significant portion of my law practice from 03-07 or so was related to the Iraq reconstruction effort. Right now, I work for a large multinational corportaion that has subsidiaries in Muslim countries and (I'm guessing but I think this is correct) thousands of Muslim employees.

I have no muddled agenda. My point is clear. Over and over on this board we see threads about Muslims being the only or the principal source of terrorism in the world. We see threads about Muslism "taking over" Western culture, and attacking immigration, etc. And I'm telling you that -- and not taking away from the sadness we should feel and condolences we should give -- the end game of that type of thinking came home to roost in Norway this weekend.

It's all sad, and it's all very preventable.

Well Mr Young the guy has been found insane, not a terrorist at all, just a sick deluded madman. Perhaps you would care to apologise to us "Old white guys".
or do you think the medics who found him insane are also "old white guys"?

BBC News - Norway massacre: Breivik declared insane

 

[Jeff Young]

Apologize for what? Making you think about some of the personal biases you have?

This guy was a right wing, anti-Muslim terrorist. Of course he was insane, he killed a bunch of innocent children. He did so because he hated Muslims.

That is fundamentally no different than this:

This guy was an Islamic fundamentalist. Of course he was insane, he hijacked a plane and killed a bunch of innocent people. He did so because he hated Christians and Western culture.

The problem is some want to minimize the political and religious motivations in situation no. 1, and highlight them in no. 2. Why? Because the "some" are white, Christian and hold political views similar in some ways to that of the shooter (and no, I'm not saying any of you would do anything like what this guy did).

 

[Jeff Young]

Norway shooter deemed sane:

World News - Norway mass shooter Anders Breivik declared 'sane'

 

[Jim Craik]

Jeff,

We sort of knew that this was comming, the shooter himelf has declared all along that this was perfectly sane, this was a "political" act, against trators.

This whole thing was too well planned out and carefully executed (perfect word) to be the work of a deranged mind...............hate filled mind for sure, but not insane.

Although, I would not expect an appology from the right (wrong this time) leaning "old white guys" here on our site.