Racing a GT40 Replica (was BEST GT40 for Racing)
- Thread starter F1Ash
- Start date
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
I never heard of Gelscoe and just looked at their website. That is one unbelievable car and I agree, likely the best there is.
I never heard of Gelscoe and just looked at their website. That is one unbelievable car and I agree, likely the best there is.
Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Gelscoe’s certainly look every bit the original in form that SPF creates (even more so IMHO) and since SPF is considered a "continuation" and accepted in some historic racing organizations what about Gelscoe? The price, if north of $300k, certainly commands it. Then again, the same question could be asked regarding Holman Moody.
Gelscoe’s certainly look every bit the original in form that SPF creates (even more so IMHO) and since SPF is considered a "continuation" and accepted in some historic racing organizations what about Gelscoe? The price, if north of $300k, certainly commands it. Then again, the same question could be asked regarding Holman Moody.
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Hello Gentleman! I apologize for my disappearance. Holidays and work have kept me away, and more so, my email wasn't informing me that there are new posts coming in to my thread! The notifications of your "INSIGHTS" were being sent to my "junk" mail for some reason.
Anyway, to get back on schedule..... Tractorboy - I agree, Damn good advise indeed!!! Everyone is giving me a lot more to think about than I originally began to inquire.
Maybe this will help you guys give me a bit more specific insight, or atleast help narrow down the "decision"
This car will be my "Vintage Type" Race Car and Endurance race car. Im not asking for the best money can buy! Nor am I asking that the car be the cheapest on the market.
Do I care about how true to its roots the car is? Yes, but not my number one concern (i.e. It is not mandatory the car has a 100% matching build blueprint of the original)
Do I care that it is a top quality build? Definitely! And I definitely care that if I spend $100k+ on it, that it holds up in a 6 hour endurance race AND also that Im not getting my feathers rustled by a Spec Miata because the chassis is unable to handle off camber corners. (All drivers being equal)
Here's what I think so far, OR, believe Im understanding. By all means, correct me if you feel Im mistaken.
From what I've been able to gather I can run the Superformance (Rolling Chassis GT40R) in SVRA, NASA, & SCCA. With that said, thats what Im leaning towards as of now BECAUSE I want to run this car in both Vintage and Non-Vintage racing leagues.
However, how much is the GELSCOE? Why would we say the GELSCOE is better than the rest? The only big difference I read on there website was that it is being built off of the Original GT40 drawings? "Devils Advocate here", unless there is something else Im missing, how does that really make it better?
- Ash -
Hello Gentleman! I apologize for my disappearance. Holidays and work have kept me away, and more so, my email wasn't informing me that there are new posts coming in to my thread! The notifications of your "INSIGHTS" were being sent to my "junk" mail for some reason.
Anyway, to get back on schedule..... Tractorboy - I agree, Damn good advise indeed!!! Everyone is giving me a lot more to think about than I originally began to inquire.
Maybe this will help you guys give me a bit more specific insight, or atleast help narrow down the "decision"
This car will be my "Vintage Type" Race Car and Endurance race car. Im not asking for the best money can buy! Nor am I asking that the car be the cheapest on the market.
Do I care about how true to its roots the car is? Yes, but not my number one concern (i.e. It is not mandatory the car has a 100% matching build blueprint of the original)
Do I care that it is a top quality build? Definitely! And I definitely care that if I spend $100k+ on it, that it holds up in a 6 hour endurance race AND also that Im not getting my feathers rustled by a Spec Miata because the chassis is unable to handle off camber corners. (All drivers being equal)
Here's what I think so far, OR, believe Im understanding. By all means, correct me if you feel Im mistaken.
From what I've been able to gather I can run the Superformance (Rolling Chassis GT40R) in SVRA, NASA, & SCCA. With that said, thats what Im leaning towards as of now BECAUSE I want to run this car in both Vintage and Non-Vintage racing leagues.
However, how much is the GELSCOE? Why would we say the GELSCOE is better than the rest? The only big difference I read on there website was that it is being built off of the Original GT40 drawings? "Devils Advocate here", unless there is something else Im missing, how does that really make it better?
- Ash -
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Does this qualify as 'vintage-type' racing??
YouTube - Matech Symphony No.1
(I know I might cop some heat - but this is a great clip...)
Does this qualify as 'vintage-type' racing??
YouTube - Matech Symphony No.1
(I know I might cop some heat - but this is a great clip...)
Ron Earp
Admin
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
What do you race now?
I'm not so sure on the current design cage situation with the GT40R as to where it can run. I was recently discussing running replicas in modern racing bodies and I think at a minimum the GT40R cage needs the following bars (see attached picture) to be SCCA legal (depends on class but there are few classes that would accept this car and they require beefy cages), and I think that would also apply to a NASA legal cage since they borrow heavily from SCCA rules.
Additionally, one would need to ensure the tube diameter is appropriate or the weight of the car although if I recall correctly 1.5" thick wall will go up to 2600 lbs which should cover the car. And, check the contact pad areas where the bars are welded in to make sure they meet minimum requirements.
Others here have more experience than I and we have at least one, if not two, SCCA tech inspectors that regularly post on the board. The other question I don't know is if these changes were made would it then be allowed to run in the historical events.
None of this discussion would have any impact on non-race events like HPDE, Porsche/BMW club days, NASA/GRM Ultimate track Car Challenge, and so on as these do not require "sanctioned cages". You may run cars without cages in most of these events.
R
What do you race now?
I'm not so sure on the current design cage situation with the GT40R as to where it can run. I was recently discussing running replicas in modern racing bodies and I think at a minimum the GT40R cage needs the following bars (see attached picture) to be SCCA legal (depends on class but there are few classes that would accept this car and they require beefy cages), and I think that would also apply to a NASA legal cage since they borrow heavily from SCCA rules.
- A rear horizontal harness bar (it might have one, can't tell from the pics but it is the easiest of all to add if missing).
- A dash bar connecting the left and right sides.
- Upper bars connecting the front and rear hoops that are on the outsides of the hoops, not on the inside of the hoop. This would make getting in and out of the car very hard.
- Check to make sure the rear down bar that stabilizes the main hoop meets angular requirements.
Additionally, one would need to ensure the tube diameter is appropriate or the weight of the car although if I recall correctly 1.5" thick wall will go up to 2600 lbs which should cover the car. And, check the contact pad areas where the bars are welded in to make sure they meet minimum requirements.
Others here have more experience than I and we have at least one, if not two, SCCA tech inspectors that regularly post on the board. The other question I don't know is if these changes were made would it then be allowed to run in the historical events.
None of this discussion would have any impact on non-race events like HPDE, Porsche/BMW club days, NASA/GRM Ultimate track Car Challenge, and so on as these do not require "sanctioned cages". You may run cars without cages in most of these events.
R
Attachments
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
For those interested and this is a slight thread drift (sorry!) I made contact with Gelscoe and inquired about their brilliant car. This is what I was told:
"A perfect copy of GT40 P 1075 with a FIA Weslake engine, ZF Gearbox, tested and ready to go with an HTP is £260000.00 POUNDS STERLING PLUS UK VAT.
If the car is exported to the USA and has a certificate of shipment to prove this then we do not need to charge UK VAT."
At roughly $1.80 to one pound stirling thats $468,000.00. I also contacted Holman Moody some time ago and inquired with them about a car.....their quote was...well let's just say it was over 100K more. When I gather the money Gelscoe will get it. I admire their work and product and quite frankly its the closest I'll ever get to owning an "original."
F1ASH, nice to have you back. Keep us posted.
For those interested and this is a slight thread drift (sorry!) I made contact with Gelscoe and inquired about their brilliant car. This is what I was told:
"A perfect copy of GT40 P 1075 with a FIA Weslake engine, ZF Gearbox, tested and ready to go with an HTP is £260000.00 POUNDS STERLING PLUS UK VAT.
If the car is exported to the USA and has a certificate of shipment to prove this then we do not need to charge UK VAT."
At roughly $1.80 to one pound stirling thats $468,000.00. I also contacted Holman Moody some time ago and inquired with them about a car.....their quote was...well let's just say it was over 100K more. When I gather the money Gelscoe will get it. I admire their work and product and quite frankly its the closest I'll ever get to owning an "original."
F1ASH, nice to have you back. Keep us posted.
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Ron,
The SPF "R" has the doors moulded with a "cutout" on the lower door to allow the side pars to be pushed outwards. i will post some additional "R" cage pictures later when I am at the other computer.
Ron,
The SPF "R" has the doors moulded with a "cutout" on the lower door to allow the side pars to be pushed outwards. i will post some additional "R" cage pictures later when I am at the other computer.
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
One's definition of 'better' may differ from another's. Arguably, modern replicas which take advantage of years of learning and/or design shortcuts (such as a spaceframe chassis) may well be faster, and would certainly be faster if they were built without reference to original rules (i.e. monster motor, brakes the size of dinner plates, huge-diameter wheels etc.)
If you want to *actually* vintage-race a GT40, a Gelscoe car is the only way to go, short of buying a genuine original car.
If you just want to vintage-race at the local, clubby level, then a Pathfinder/SPF car would probably be a reasonable way to go.
Of all the offerings available, ONLY the Gelscoe car is 100% original down to the last rivet. As such, it is the only car that is accepted by the FIA for international vintage racing. If you want to run in European vintage race series, this is the way to go. However, a prerequisite would be that you would have to be a millionaire, and be willing to spend a substantial portion of a million dollars each year for the privilege of running against other European millionaires.
The Pathfinder/SPF GT40R is a close second; although they have taken some liberties with the original design, they are rather minimal (mostly safety-related, and bigger/better brakes), and the second-tier vintage race sanctioning bodies will accept them. But you'll never get one into Monterey, or Le Mans, or any top-tier vintage race.
But if you're talking about just going around in circles on a track, with all sorts of other dogs and cats around you (such as Miatas, etc.), then the field becomes much more open. You're not vintage racing anymore, you're just clowning around. Chances are that third-tier and fourth-tier sactioning bodies would be much more liberal, i.e. if your entry check clears, you're welcome on the track! :laugh:
Before you spend Dime One on a GT40, you need to analyze your specific ambitions, turn a sharp eye towards the rulebooks of the sanctioning body/bodies that you hope to run with, and speak on the telephone (remember that thing?) with the rulemakers of each of those sanctioning bodies to find out what they will, and will not allow.
Once you've done that, then that will focus your search for a suitable car.
Oh, and at the risk of asking the obvious, do you actually know how to drive? (I'm asking from the perspective of somebody who freely admits that he doesn't). If you aren't an *experienced* racer already (and by that, I mean having years of wheel-to-wheel roadracing experience under your belt), then you are absolutely wasting your time talking about running a GT40.
Do tell?
One's definition of 'better' may differ from another's. Arguably, modern replicas which take advantage of years of learning and/or design shortcuts (such as a spaceframe chassis) may well be faster, and would certainly be faster if they were built without reference to original rules (i.e. monster motor, brakes the size of dinner plates, huge-diameter wheels etc.)
If you want to *actually* vintage-race a GT40, a Gelscoe car is the only way to go, short of buying a genuine original car.
If you just want to vintage-race at the local, clubby level, then a Pathfinder/SPF car would probably be a reasonable way to go.
Of all the offerings available, ONLY the Gelscoe car is 100% original down to the last rivet. As such, it is the only car that is accepted by the FIA for international vintage racing. If you want to run in European vintage race series, this is the way to go. However, a prerequisite would be that you would have to be a millionaire, and be willing to spend a substantial portion of a million dollars each year for the privilege of running against other European millionaires.
The Pathfinder/SPF GT40R is a close second; although they have taken some liberties with the original design, they are rather minimal (mostly safety-related, and bigger/better brakes), and the second-tier vintage race sanctioning bodies will accept them. But you'll never get one into Monterey, or Le Mans, or any top-tier vintage race.
But if you're talking about just going around in circles on a track, with all sorts of other dogs and cats around you (such as Miatas, etc.), then the field becomes much more open. You're not vintage racing anymore, you're just clowning around. Chances are that third-tier and fourth-tier sactioning bodies would be much more liberal, i.e. if your entry check clears, you're welcome on the track! :laugh:
Before you spend Dime One on a GT40, you need to analyze your specific ambitions, turn a sharp eye towards the rulebooks of the sanctioning body/bodies that you hope to run with, and speak on the telephone (remember that thing?) with the rulemakers of each of those sanctioning bodies to find out what they will, and will not allow.
Once you've done that, then that will focus your search for a suitable car.
Oh, and at the risk of asking the obvious, do you actually know how to drive? (I'm asking from the perspective of somebody who freely admits that he doesn't). If you aren't an *experienced* racer already (and by that, I mean having years of wheel-to-wheel roadracing experience under your belt), then you are absolutely wasting your time talking about running a GT40.
Do tell?
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Ron & Mike - spot on...
Also -
Over the years rules have changed for various sanctioning bodies, even vintage organizations, that favor safety..
The original GT40 as well as many other notables such as the 917K, et al - were actually not very safe cars at all. A number of drivers were injured seriously and some killed in wrecks that may be around yet today with the current safety standards.
That said - even though I have many years of wheel-to-wheel competition experience - I would not enter into any serious competition with a GT40 prepared only to the original specifications..
Ron & Mike - spot on...
Also -
Over the years rules have changed for various sanctioning bodies, even vintage organizations, that favor safety..
The original GT40 as well as many other notables such as the 917K, et al - were actually not very safe cars at all. A number of drivers were injured seriously and some killed in wrecks that may be around yet today with the current safety standards.
That said - even though I have many years of wheel-to-wheel competition experience - I would not enter into any serious competition with a GT40 prepared only to the original specifications..
Ron Earp
Admin
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Good thing that is cleared up. I, Randy, Jeff, Ross, Russ, Malcolm, Glenn, Paul, Mesa, and all the other racers on the forum are "clowning around". I always wondered where all the years of time and money I thought I was spending on competitive wheel to wheel racing was going.
Those third and fourth tier sanctioning bodies, which I assume to mean the SCCA or NASA, have more stringent safety and driver requirements than the historic groups. They will not accept you on track, at least not on the east coast regions, just as long as your check clears.
Me neither. Not enough cage to my liking. Cage design has changed so much in even the last 20 years that it doesn't make sense to take advantage of the advancements. My Z cage needs to be redesigned to really work well and use rules to my advantage.
Good thing that is cleared up. I, Randy, Jeff, Ross, Russ, Malcolm, Glenn, Paul, Mesa, and all the other racers on the forum are "clowning around". I always wondered where all the years of time and money I thought I was spending on competitive wheel to wheel racing was going.
Those third and fourth tier sanctioning bodies, which I assume to mean the SCCA or NASA, have more stringent safety and driver requirements than the historic groups. They will not accept you on track, at least not on the east coast regions, just as long as your check clears.
Me neither. Not enough cage to my liking. Cage design has changed so much in even the last 20 years that it doesn't make sense to take advantage of the advancements. My Z cage needs to be redesigned to really work well and use rules to my advantage.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Yeah, that was an odd post.
From what I've seen of some of the high dollar stuff on track, most of it would get embarrassed by a properly prepared 125 whp Spec Miata in the hands of a good SCCA Regional Club racer.
SCCA is very strict when it comes to safety stuff, and the racing in the more competitive classes is top notch.
Ron and I took the 260z out one time to a test day at CMP that was a Porsche Club event. Had a lot of fun turning the same or better lap times as Vipers on race tires, 911s, etc.
Prep level, set up, good safety equipment and good competition are what make racing fun, not a $150k carbon fiber race car with 600 whp.
Yeah, that was an odd post.
From what I've seen of some of the high dollar stuff on track, most of it would get embarrassed by a properly prepared 125 whp Spec Miata in the hands of a good SCCA Regional Club racer.
SCCA is very strict when it comes to safety stuff, and the racing in the more competitive classes is top notch.
Ron and I took the 260z out one time to a test day at CMP that was a Porsche Club event. Had a lot of fun turning the same or better lap times as Vipers on race tires, 911s, etc.
Prep level, set up, good safety equipment and good competition are what make racing fun, not a $150k carbon fiber race car with 600 whp.
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Real vintage racing is a rare find.
Even if they call it that and all the original cars are in there. most of the drivers are not capable of using the cars potential, nor are they willing to do so because they don´t want to damage their and their competitors cars.
They are defenitely not happy to have a hot driven "cheap" SPF ruining there much more valuable cars.
The vintage races i viewed where pretty boring as a race itself, of course it was nice to see all the old cars running around the track.
I agree to Ron and Jeff, go and visit some good clubraces and you see real racing ( as it used to be before the big TV and advertising money came in)
So i think the choice is "poser racing" with a original or close to original car, or real racing with a purpose build GT40 replica ( much cheaper and more fun)
TOM
Real vintage racing is a rare find.
Even if they call it that and all the original cars are in there. most of the drivers are not capable of using the cars potential, nor are they willing to do so because they don´t want to damage their and their competitors cars.
They are defenitely not happy to have a hot driven "cheap" SPF ruining there much more valuable cars.
The vintage races i viewed where pretty boring as a race itself, of course it was nice to see all the old cars running around the track.
I agree to Ron and Jeff, go and visit some good clubraces and you see real racing ( as it used to be before the big TV and advertising money came in)
So i think the choice is "poser racing" with a original or close to original car, or real racing with a purpose build GT40 replica ( much cheaper and more fun)
TOM
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
I mis-read / or read Mike's post differently... After re-reading, I believe I will have to disagree with Mike on that particular front.
Racing Pro, Semi-Pro or Club/Amateur is all very serious business. Obviously the Pro and Semi-Pro are doing it for money and that tends to up the ante so to speak, but still we are all out there trying to beat the next guy into or out-of the next corner..
Ron - I would love to talk with you sometime about your cage updates for the Z car...
I mis-read / or read Mike's post differently... After re-reading, I believe I will have to disagree with Mike on that particular front.
Racing Pro, Semi-Pro or Club/Amateur is all very serious business. Obviously the Pro and Semi-Pro are doing it for money and that tends to up the ante so to speak, but still we are all out there trying to beat the next guy into or out-of the next corner..
Ron - I would love to talk with you sometime about your cage updates for the Z car...
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Here's a video taken from the cockpit of my Factory Five Cobra replica back when I was running Super Production (SPO) with it.
YouTube - Cobra race at Brainerd International Raceway
Mind you - I was dealing with only a little over 300 HP here as well as recovering from surgery for a detached retina (no speeches please - I learned my lesson) - We went 5 wide on the start and entered into the first turn on cold tires at 140 MPH and on the following lap at 150. That's when I had to start letting out of it because I simply could not see well enough (burning eyes) and I fell in behind my team mate in the yellow car.. We finished the race 1st and 2nd in class (yes there were 4 others) and 4th overall in the group..
Watch the "gun camera" films from any number of weekend warriors as well as pros and you'll see basically the same story over and over.
Much Vintage racing is done with "Contract Passes" and also subject to the 13/13 rule...
While I am a proponent of Vintage Racing - I realize that much of this competition is to a different level of competition.
Here's a video taken from the cockpit of my Factory Five Cobra replica back when I was running Super Production (SPO) with it.
YouTube - Cobra race at Brainerd International Raceway
Mind you - I was dealing with only a little over 300 HP here as well as recovering from surgery for a detached retina (no speeches please - I learned my lesson) - We went 5 wide on the start and entered into the first turn on cold tires at 140 MPH and on the following lap at 150. That's when I had to start letting out of it because I simply could not see well enough (burning eyes) and I fell in behind my team mate in the yellow car.. We finished the race 1st and 2nd in class (yes there were 4 others) and 4th overall in the group..
Watch the "gun camera" films from any number of weekend warriors as well as pros and you'll see basically the same story over and over.
Much Vintage racing is done with "Contract Passes" and also subject to the 13/13 rule...
While I am a proponent of Vintage Racing - I realize that much of this competition is to a different level of competition.
Ron Earp
Admin
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Sorry, found this on FB and just had to post it with your comment. If you look carefully he is actually giving a point by too.
Sorry, found this on FB and just had to post it with your comment. If you look carefully he is actually giving a point by too.
Ron Earp
Admin
Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??
Hey Randy, nice clowning around there in the Cobra. FFR Cobra in SPO? How was that?
SPO is about where I figured a GT40 replica would run too. But it'd have to meet SPO cage specifications and that isn't easy in a GT40 and still be able to get in and out of the car. The SPF GT40R wouldn't meet specs for the reasons I mentioned earlier with the missing bars and so on. Historical racing associations are far more lenient with acceptable safety equipment - they have to be due to the historical foundation.
Hey Randy, nice clowning around there in the Cobra. FFR Cobra in SPO? How was that?
SPO is about where I figured a GT40 replica would run too. But it'd have to meet SPO cage specifications and that isn't easy in a GT40 and still be able to get in and out of the car. The SPF GT40R wouldn't meet specs for the reasons I mentioned earlier with the missing bars and so on. Historical racing associations are far more lenient with acceptable safety equipment - they have to be due to the historical foundation.
