S2's Build Thread

Scott

Lifetime Supporter
Scott, those are a great find! So far as I can tell they will work up front, but they won't work for the rear. Not an issue because Superlite can provide reluctors that mount to the rear axle. With a street price of $225 they cost less than a buying a separate reluctor and sensor and there is no need for a bracket.

Note that when the hubs were in use (91-96), the vette had different hubs for the rears which had a three-bolt pattern and an external reluctor/sensor.

I sent your link to my MoTeC guy. He's working on a GTM which has the exact same hubs and indicated that they worked well. Let me know if you figure out how many teeth they have.
 

Ken Roberts

Supporter
Here is a link to some "super heavy duty" race wheel bearings made for the C4 Corvette that have a built in reluctor assembly. I looked in to using/modifying these a couple of years back. I too wanted the higher resolution that a reluctor wheel offers for the front.

http://hoosierpe.com/tech-info/4th-gen-f-body-and-c4-corvette-front-wheel-hub-assembly/

The reluctor wheel bolts to the end of the spindle. The end cap is plastic. If it doesn't work "as is" then a new reluctor wheel of a different shape could be machined and the end cap could be modified to hold the new sensor. I still may take the plunge and try and use them just to challenge myself. At $1400 they are expensive though. I think I read that those bearing sizes were from a 1 ton truck.....yikes.

I'd split the fabrication costs with anyone who wants to play with the idea.
 
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Scott, those are a great find! So far as I can tell they will work up front, but they won't work for the rear. Not an issue because Superlite can provide reluctors that mount to the rear axle. With a street price of $225 they cost less than a buying a separate reluctor and sensor and there is no need for a bracket.

Note that when the hubs were in use (91-96), the vette had different hubs for the rears which had a three-bolt pattern and an external reluctor/sensor.

I sent your link to my MoTeC guy. He's working on a GTM which has the exact same hubs and indicated that they worked well. Let me know if you figure out how many teeth they have.

I have purchased one c5 rear hub. It has the same 3 bolt pattern and internal reluctor wheel/pick up. Fran mentioned it does not fit, but, I have yet to try it to see why it won't, and if it is easy to modify to use them. To my knowledge, nearly every suspension piece is interchangeable from c4 to c5. Not going to be back onto my mechanicals until body is done though, so this is back burner stuff for me right now.
 

Scott

Lifetime Supporter
Scott, I haven't taken the rear suspension apart yet, but you could be right. I'm not going to prioritize the rear yet because I know that I can put a reluctor on the axle and I'm waiting on parts to install the transaxle.

To my understanding: the OEM wheel bearings weren't all that good to begin with; most of the replacement bearings are Chinese junk; and the ones in the kit are custom made in the USA for Superlite. The ones in the kit are a good solution so long as you aren't trying to monitor wheel speed.

The Timken ones are allegedly high-quality and made in the USA according to this page and the guy that I spoke with at Zip. Of course, if it's on the Internet it must be true:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_CgPsGY5Mw

Ken, those are really nice! I assume that the fronts, like the Timkens, would just drop in. It doesn't look like they make rears... if they did, they would likely run into same issue that the Timkens had...
 

Ken Roberts

Supporter
A C5 rear hub will not fit in the rear of the SLC due to the axle shaft differences. The C4 is 27 spline and the C5 is 30 spline.
 
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Ken Roberts

Supporter
If you decide to use the 91-96 C4 front hubs (for the ABS sensors) then you can also use the 93-2002 Camaro front hubs. The only difference is the way the hub is mounted to the upright. The Camaro hubs 4 mounting holes are threaded and the C4 hubs are drilled out.

The Camaro premium hubs (SKF and Timken) are a lot cheaper.

If you are building a track focused car and want the longest lasting rebuildable hubs then this is your answer 4th Gen F-Body and C4 Corvette Front Wheel Hub Assembly
 

Scott

Lifetime Supporter
The Timken's arrived on Saturday and they don't fit. (the studs are also longer, but that's easy to fix). In the picture below, the ones from the kit are on the left and the Timken is on the right. The section of the Timken with the red bar collides with the arrow on the upright which pads the Timken out by about 0.15". It looks like the waterproof cap would need to modified and the lip that it sits on would likely need to machined as well.

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It might be easier to have the upright machined... I don't think that it would compromise the upright...Fran?

I'm also going to call Hoosier tomorrow to see if the ones that Ken mentioned will work out of the box.
 

Ken Roberts

Supporter
There is another option I have discovered recently. There is a steel adapter that can be mounted to the upright. Then a C6 Corvette SKF x-tracker hub assembly assembly gets mounted to the adapter. These hub assemblies are used on Corvette Race cars. There has been tons of positive feedback about their use.

Here is a link to the adapter and what it looks like. (post #15) Project Z28 Killer. - LS1TECH


Here is the info on the SKF heavy duty hub New Distributor for SKF X-Tracker Racing Hubs - CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion

I'm currently talking with the builder of the adapter. The adapter mounted to the x-tracker hub is identical in dimensions to the C4 Corvette and Camaro hub.
 

Scott

Lifetime Supporter
I just spoke with the guys at Hoosier. The part of the hub that sticks inserts into the upright is even deeper than the Timken. This is pretty apparent when you look at the piece in the upper right of the picture below. So, it looks like I'd need to machine the upright to use either the Timken or the Hoosier. Fran, I'm hoping that those bumps are like tonsils and can be lopped off...
 

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Ken Roberts

Supporter
Scott, check out the instruction manual with the "adapter setup". The inboard lip on the adapter is very small.

Road Racing Suspension

My uprights don't have that lip.



Here are the two measurements that are most important.



 
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Scott

Lifetime Supporter
Ken,

The dimensions that you show are spot on. The issue is the lip in the upright. It's interesting that you don't have one. I have the Brembo GT brake upgrade and maybe they have different uprights vs. the standard Brembos. Does anyone else have the lip pointed to by the red arrow a few posts above?

Machining that lip of would solve the fitment problem for both the Timken and, I assume, the Hoosier hub. Fran, what are your thoughts on machining that lip?

Ken, I think what you're saying is that I could replace the front 4-bolt hubs with those three-bolt hubs designed to go into the rear of a newer generation car if I use the adapter because: the adapter will keep offset, bolt pattern etc. the exact same and the external reluctor ring is low profile and would likely clear the lip in the upright. The down side is: cost and having an additional piece (i.e., the adapter) which adds about 1.5 pound per wheel.
 

Ken Roberts

Supporter
Scott the stock C4 wheel hubs are the achilles heal. They don't last long at all if tracking the car. Most guys that track their cars go through two or three sets of hubs per season. In the end the Hoosier or the X tracker hubs are more economical in the long run. The X tracker hubs by SKF were factory installed on the ZR1 Corvette. They were also used on GT3 Corvette race cars. If they are good enough for those cars........


A set of timken C4 hubs cost about $300 shipped. Multiply that by 2 or 3 sets a year. You are at the cost of the Hoosier or X trackers in 2 years of racing. Plus you can enjoy the car more without having to constantly work on it.

I would give up 1.5 lbs of weight for a more reliable solution.

I just got the dimensional drawings for the adapters. Looks like I'm gonna purchase them right now.
 
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Ken Roberts

Supporter
With the adapters you can use the X-tracker SKF hubs at $350 each or any C5/C6 Corvette hub. The C6 Corvettes used the same hub front or back. The 1997- 2008 cars used 30 spline hubs and the 2009 -2013 cars used 33 spline.

The stock type C5/C6 hubs are an improvement alone over the stock C4 hubs. I just purchased the adapters and 30 spline C5/C6 X-tracker hubs. I'll do a write up on installing them after the holidays.

Another good reason to use the adapter is they have a bolt on flange for a cooling duct/plate. See here http://www.rrsusp.com/docs/f-body_vette-bearing_installation.pdf

One final comment is you have a choice of ABS type of sensor with the X-tracker hubs or stock C5/C6 hubs. The 30 spline hubs use a Delphi passive sensor while the 33 spline hubs use a Bosch active sensor.
 
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Scott

Lifetime Supporter
I spoke with Fran today. He indicated that the lip provides additional strength and helps to index the hub. He indicated it was OK to machine it so long as: (1) care is taken to index the new hubs (i.e., have the hub on hand when the upright is machined) and (2) no one asks him to machine their uprights;-)

So, my plan is to order the ones from Hoosier. While they're more expensive than SKF hubs, they don't require an adapter -- less bolts and no additional weight... while 1.5 pounds / wheel isn't much it's unsprung weight.
 

Ken Roberts

Supporter
From my observations I'd say the Hoosier is the heaviest of the bunch. Longer housing, long thick spindle shaft, large solid reluctor ring, large nut and washer. Great to see you try it out Scott. We are both going to bring new options to the SLC/GT-R crowd!
 

Scott

Lifetime Supporter
Ed, Preston and I were looking for pictures of the cockpit adjustable race sway bars sold by SUPERLITE. I think you had some nice custom ones made...
 

Scott

Lifetime Supporter
1481086168723

No More Micky-Mouse 3D-Printed Parts

3D printing is really empowering... you can think it, design it, print it, and then try it... and if it's not right, repeat the process. In my case, the third try isn't always the charm. Having the printer in the garage means that, depending on the size of the part, I can iterate the process many times per day. However, the issue with my first 3D printer and most Fused Filament Fabrication (FFF) printers is that the plastics that they print (e.g., PLA, ABS, etc.) aren't strong or heat tolerant enough for many automotive applications outside of the cockpit.

For example, PLA isn't well suited for the condenser brackets that I designed and printed in a previous post. I spent a fair amount of time researching what it would take to upgrade the hot end my MakerBot Replicator 2X to extrude nylon, which is probably the best FFF material for automotive applications. There were two primary problems with that approach:

1.Nylon is hydroscopic which means that it absorbs water. When you extrude (i.e., melt) filament that has absorbed water, the water vaporizes and creates air bubbles. This weakens the material by breaking apart its polymer chains and creates voids which weakens inter-layer adhesion, not something you want to do when printing something in a large number of 100-micron thick layers. Lastly, it leaves an undesirable surface finish. So, if you want quality results with nylon, you need to think about a lot more than just the hot end.

2.Nylon is strong, but it's also flexible which is not desirable in many applications.

Beyond these issues some of the parts that I was designing could be prototyped via 3D printing, but even nylon wasn't going to be strong enough for actual use. I would need to send them out to be cut or machined out of metal. I spent about five minutes looking into 3D printers that could do metal -- the legit ones are beyond expensive for personal use, think entry-level Ferrari.

FRUSTRATION -- THE MOTHER OF INVENTION
After doing some research I stumbled into Markforged, a start up company that's changing the 3D printing world by producing parts that are as strong as and lighter than 6061 aluminum. They have the only 3D printer that can print continuous strands of fiber including:

  • carbon fiber: highest strength to weight and highest thermal conductivity
  • Kevlar: best abrasion resistance and most flexible
  • high-strength, high-temp (HSHT) fiberglass: over 105°C, with a heat deflection point of 150°C
  • fiberglass: most cost effective
1478970396065

They are located only a few miles from my house and I visited them for an event showcasing their new Mark X printer. I had a chance to meet the founder/CEO. He's a motorsports guy and was previously the co-founder of AeroMotions which products race-proven, dynamic wings. He was frustrated with the cost and cycle time to prototype new wing supports and that got him to thinking that there must be a better way... what if continuous strands of carbon fiber could be printed? What do you do when the tech doesn't exist?... you invent it.

Video of the moveable wing from Aeromotions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7l70Q6P-vU

They had a Ducati in the lobby and they're starting to replace metal parts with composite printed ones. They passed around a replacement brake lever printed in carbon fiber. It had metal bushings and continuous carbon fiber strands optimally oriented in the direction of stress. I wouldn't hestiate to use it . Of course, you'd first have to get me on the cycle -- nah, I like the six-point cage in the SL-C.

Apparently there are a number of race teams using Markforged printers, but they're being very quiet about it and either painting or nickel plating the parts to keep the competition is in the dark. If fact one of the other guys attending the event builds race cars (I'd have to kill you if I told you which series) and he's interested in doing FEA to determine if he could print composite uprights!

3D PRINTING MAN CARD
There's just some things you can't un-see, like the CNC-machined suspension on a SL-C or Onyx with reinforced carbon fiber strands... so I ordered a Mark Two Enterprise on the spot from Ben at Alpha Imaging, a value-added reseller who was sponsoring the event. I loved the Mark X, but it's over 4x the price of the Mark Two Enterprise and that would get me in lot of trouble with the family CFO.

If Apple made a 3D printer, it would look just like this one -- not just the hardware, but the whole enchilada including packaging, instructions, ancillary tools and most importantly the software.

Obviously, it can only print continuous strands of fiber in the X-Y axis so you need to print the part in the correct orientation. For example, if you were printing an "L" bracket, you would print it with the L laying on its side as opposed to standing up. That would orient the continuous strands in the direction of anticipated stress. Their slicer enables you to control which layers, if any, have continuous fiber and which algorithm, concentric or isotropic, is used to lay it out.
eiger_concentirc_fill.png
eiger_isotropic_fill.png
 
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