Which part, that liberals avail themselves of the abortion convenience more than conservatives, or the part about you and your chums acting like high schoolers?
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Which part, that liberals avail themselves of the abortion convenience more than conservatives, or the part about you and your chums acting like high schoolers?
Bob,
Abortion must be one of the most difficult issues to debate. The problem is as soon as you start thinking of those that have a different view than yours as "your enemy" and attack the person rather that the issue it gets very difficult to debate anything.
I am as guilty as you of lumping everyone in the same boat, I am sure there are one or two good conservatives out there after all my grandad was one
. Maybe it is different in the U.S. but in the UK I know many liberal / socialist Christian anti abortionists, myself being one of them.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Nick, why pander to this guy? Debating abortion on the internet is never good as you suggest.
But why even bother engaging a guy who thinks it approrpriate to say things like abortion is "liberals who are offing their own"?
There is a lunatic fringe in this country, UK too I am sure. Unfortunately the internet brings us into greater contact with them every day. After years of trying to do what you are doing (a noble effort) I've given up. Just time to call spades, spades.
But why even bother engaging a guy who thinks it approrpriate to say things like abortion is "liberals who are offing their own"?
There is a lunatic fringe in this country, UK too I am sure. Unfortunately the internet brings us into greater contact with them every day. After years of trying to do what you are doing (a noble effort) I've given up. Just time to call spades, spades.
Jeff....why are you calling lonesomebob a lunatic, to discredit his view? you may not like the way he phrased it but his point has some truth, conservatives for the most part are anti and liberals for the most part are pro, whats so bad about that..
The abortion topic has very little wiggle room...millions upon millions of people hold the same belief on this issue as lonesomebob.. I think the old "you're crazy" "you're a lunatic" tactic really rings hollow here..
Bob,
Abortion must be one of the most difficult issues to debate. The problem is as soon as you start thinking of those that have a different view than yours as "your enemy" and attack the person rather that the issue it gets very difficult to debate anything.
I am as guilty as you of lumping everyone in the same boat, I am sure there are one or two good conservatives out there after all my grandad was one
Maybe it is different in the U.S. but in the UK I know many liberal / socialist Christian anti abortionists, myself being one of them.
Thank you for your open mind, Nick! If you have read this thread, you'll see that I stated a very real fact, the Western World and Japan are breeding themselves out of existence. To make another point, I said that abortion on demand has eliminated 52 million American lives, which have been, in effect, replaced by the flood of illegal aliens to this country. I believe a similar phenomena is occurring in Europe. I was immediately called crazy, a nut case. Am I exaggerating (some put the toll at 72M, I was staying on the low side)? Then came the juvenile "wanking" remarks, but no reasonable replies. Fine, doesn't bother me in the least.
What is bothersome is that those remarks were countered by accusations that I was some kind of fundamentalist nutcase, rather than as a valid observation of the mess this world is in right now. They can't accept another point of view, so they demonize the messenger. That is the new trend in American Liberal society. The schools here have done a very thorough job of spreading Liberalism in America. If I were to go on a major university campus and start talking about Conservative principles, I would stand a very good chance of receiving physical harm. The debate of ideas has been locked out of this country's educational system. And yes, they look upon Conservatism as the enemy, and I agree.
Well said Lonesomebob. Laura Ingram addressed the issue of Biden's trip in China, and placed the blame for some 30 million men who don't have and won't find partners on the one child policy. And China will have pension problems in the future with 1 person supporting 4 retired people.
Abortion has been a boom to people like Planned Parenthood and others who have gotten rich off the law. That's what its about.
And let me finish by saying that I sure wouldn't want to go and meet my maker with that on my conscience.
Finally! Thank you Domtoni! I have described the American abortion on demand system as "Just like China, but voluntary."
The Chinese are raising a very fierce army. Millions of healthy young men and no women! "You want a woman? There's plenty in Russia, got get 'em!"
And thanks to you, Automan. I'm open to a logical opinion on why abortion is a good idea. Certainly, if a woman is in danger of her life, sure. But, when the elimination of a human life is equated to a simple procedure like removing a wart, something is seriously askew.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
No, I'm calling him a lunatic because he's ranting wild eyed about 50 million murders on demand by liberals offing their kids!
(a) he needs to work his delivery;
(b) I doubt he will;
(c) I agree there's not much wiggle room so shouting about it on the internet like he is doing is usually, well, crazy;
(d) he's missed basically every nuance to the discussion and completed avoided the one nuance that was provided to him to discuss;
(e) he's now claiming that our military is weaker and our illegal immigration "problem" worse because of "liberals offing their babies"; and
(e) honestly, he's the kind of guy who ends up in the tree with the high powered rifle taking pot shots at doctors who work at Planned Parenthood clinics.
He's a nut.
(a) he needs to work his delivery;
(b) I doubt he will;
(c) I agree there's not much wiggle room so shouting about it on the internet like he is doing is usually, well, crazy;
(d) he's missed basically every nuance to the discussion and completed avoided the one nuance that was provided to him to discuss;
(e) he's now claiming that our military is weaker and our illegal immigration "problem" worse because of "liberals offing their babies"; and
(e) honestly, he's the kind of guy who ends up in the tree with the high powered rifle taking pot shots at doctors who work at Planned Parenthood clinics.
He's a nut.
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Domtoni,
So we have a poor, single lady who just makes end meet and currently can't afford a child. This lady who then becomes pregnant, you would insist that she have the baby.
Now the time comes for delivery, she can't afford health care and of course you do not want to help with that. Food and clothing for the child she can't afford, you turn you back on that as well.
In your brave new Concervative world public day care is out as well, so she has to quit her low paying job.
What a wonderful new selfish Concervative picture you have created!
********
But Domtoni, look at the bright side!
Sure you have you ruined two lives and placed a life time burden on the population, but now you have someone new to call "LAZY" and a new problem to blame on the Democrats!
So we have a poor, single lady who just makes end meet and currently can't afford a child. This lady who then becomes pregnant, you would insist that she have the baby.
Now the time comes for delivery, she can't afford health care and of course you do not want to help with that. Food and clothing for the child she can't afford, you turn you back on that as well.
In your brave new Concervative world public day care is out as well, so she has to quit her low paying job.
What a wonderful new selfish Concervative picture you have created!
********
But Domtoni, look at the bright side!
Sure you have you ruined two lives and placed a life time burden on the population, but now you have someone new to call "LAZY" and a new problem to blame on the Democrats!
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LonesomeBob,
I am taking the time to very careful writing this post. I'm sure it has been has been said a million times before...
If you are pro-life, then there is no choice. Period (or full stop if you are English).
If you are Pro-Choice, then there you go, you have a CHOICE...
your default position is that there should never be a foetus aborted. I believe that the person carrying the foetus should have a choice (up to a point). You see, that's the word. CHOICE.
Please don't think that if you are pro-choice that abortion is the default position. It simply means that the person carrying the bundle of cells has the right to abort, given the circumstances.
You also posited the argument that given no abortions, there would be 50 odd million US citizens taking up the work that immigrants currently do. And yet, you missed yor own point! If they were raised as US citizens in the same way that all the others have been in the last thirty five years,they wouldn't want to do the work anyway!
LonesomeBob, please don't obfuscate. Follow up your points without changing the subject.
And Domtoni, I can't believe that you would support someone with such a thin veneer of a (non) point...
I am taking the time to very careful writing this post. I'm sure it has been has been said a million times before...
If you are pro-life, then there is no choice. Period (or full stop if you are English).
If you are Pro-Choice, then there you go, you have a CHOICE...
your default position is that there should never be a foetus aborted. I believe that the person carrying the foetus should have a choice (up to a point). You see, that's the word. CHOICE.
Please don't think that if you are pro-choice that abortion is the default position. It simply means that the person carrying the bundle of cells has the right to abort, given the circumstances.
You also posited the argument that given no abortions, there would be 50 odd million US citizens taking up the work that immigrants currently do. And yet, you missed yor own point! If they were raised as US citizens in the same way that all the others have been in the last thirty five years,they wouldn't want to do the work anyway!
LonesomeBob, please don't obfuscate. Follow up your points without changing the subject.
And Domtoni, I can't believe that you would support someone with such a thin veneer of a (non) point...
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
How about birth control on demand (other than abortion) and sex education?
Or are you opposed to that too?
Or are you opposed to that too?
Your thin veneer isn't very impressive either, Gravy. Here's a link to a Google search on "Choice clinics block ultrasound."
choice clinics block ultrasound - Google Search
Now why wouldn't you want to let a mother see the "bundle of cells" she is having a procedure on? Could it be that it may actually look more like a baby than your cell packet?
If choice is the agenda here, why would that be a problem?
I have no delusions that there will ever be a time when no fetus will ever be aborted, that is your twisting my views around, but the numbers on abortion, just because its inconvenient, is staggering.
We'll get to the rest later, I'll let you try and digest this info first. Wouldn't want to change the subject on you.
.
Its already done. I have no problem with birth control at all. Sex education? Did you really need it when your were coming up? I don't really like the idea of the government taking over my role as a parent. I wouldn't like a conservative government doing it, and I certainly don't like liberals doing it now. I think that kind of power can lead to abuse;
Breaking: Obama's "Safe Schools Czar" Is Promoting Child Porn in the Classroom– Kevin Jennings and the GLSEN Reading List | The Gateway Pundit
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Yeah, this President is all about showing kids porn in schools. Got it. Don't poison your mind with websites like that please. It just shows ignorance.
Beyond that you are nudging -- NUDGING -- towards some actual debate over this stuff, rather than just ranting about liberals offing 50 million kids.
So let's cut right to the chase. First, we don't have "abortion on demand" in the US despite what some nutty website told you. States have a fair amount of ability to restrict abortions, and do so. In fact, in most cases, states prevent abortion after viability except in cases where the mother's life is threatened, or incest or rape.
Notably, some "conservatives" would force a women who had been the subject of incest or rape to carry the baby to term....
But back to the nub of this. The reason why the courts allow the woman to choose pre-viability and the state after is really fairly simply stated, but based on a question of philosophical, cosmologial and religious nature that is about as deep as it gets and that is:
When does a sack of cells become invested with a "soul" such that it is a human life?
Your rants above start with the assertion that all abortions are a "murder" of a "human life." That's fine, you are entitled to reach that conclusion. But what you MUST understand is that conclusion is YOU having an OPINION about a metaphysical question to which there is not a good answer.
So we are left with this. When does the woman get to decide if that sack of cells in her body is a human life, and when do we as a society convey "humanness" to it and protect it as such?
The courts have drawn the line at viability. Not perfect, but something. Before that, we DO NOT let the state -- or YOU Lonesome Bob -- to impose YOUR answer to what is essentially a religious question on others. This comports with the general notion that religious issues are personal matters that individuals get to decide.
But I agree that at some point, that sack of cells reachs a state of "humanness" at which point it is entitled to protection from all of us. After that point -- right now viability -- we allow the state to restrict abortions.
By the way, the VAST majority of abortions in the US occur well before the end of the first trimester and well before viability.
That fact and the fact that you are seeking to impose your own PERSONAL religious decision as to when life begins on others, and calling those who disagree with you murderers is what made your shit above so offensive.
Now it is your turn. Let's see if you can debate this rationally or if you get all wild eyed and start thinking about how much fertilizer you need to take down your neighborhood Planned Parenthood clinic.
Beyond that you are nudging -- NUDGING -- towards some actual debate over this stuff, rather than just ranting about liberals offing 50 million kids.
So let's cut right to the chase. First, we don't have "abortion on demand" in the US despite what some nutty website told you. States have a fair amount of ability to restrict abortions, and do so. In fact, in most cases, states prevent abortion after viability except in cases where the mother's life is threatened, or incest or rape.
Notably, some "conservatives" would force a women who had been the subject of incest or rape to carry the baby to term....
But back to the nub of this. The reason why the courts allow the woman to choose pre-viability and the state after is really fairly simply stated, but based on a question of philosophical, cosmologial and religious nature that is about as deep as it gets and that is:
When does a sack of cells become invested with a "soul" such that it is a human life?
Your rants above start with the assertion that all abortions are a "murder" of a "human life." That's fine, you are entitled to reach that conclusion. But what you MUST understand is that conclusion is YOU having an OPINION about a metaphysical question to which there is not a good answer.
So we are left with this. When does the woman get to decide if that sack of cells in her body is a human life, and when do we as a society convey "humanness" to it and protect it as such?
The courts have drawn the line at viability. Not perfect, but something. Before that, we DO NOT let the state -- or YOU Lonesome Bob -- to impose YOUR answer to what is essentially a religious question on others. This comports with the general notion that religious issues are personal matters that individuals get to decide.
But I agree that at some point, that sack of cells reachs a state of "humanness" at which point it is entitled to protection from all of us. After that point -- right now viability -- we allow the state to restrict abortions.
By the way, the VAST majority of abortions in the US occur well before the end of the first trimester and well before viability.
That fact and the fact that you are seeking to impose your own PERSONAL religious decision as to when life begins on others, and calling those who disagree with you murderers is what made your shit above so offensive.
Now it is your turn. Let's see if you can debate this rationally or if you get all wild eyed and start thinking about how much fertilizer you need to take down your neighborhood Planned Parenthood clinic.
"Now it is your turn. Let's see if you can debate this rationally or if you get all wild eyed and start thinking about how much fertilizer you need to take down your neighborhood Planned Parenthood clinic."
Lovely. You're just another liberal know it all, aren't you? I've never used a religious argument in this thread, and yet you demonize me as a religious nut. I am arguing for the lives of human beings and you infer that I just might be a fertilizer bomber.
Does this little snippet give anyone who may read this some insight into the huge divide between Left and Right?
Lovely. You're just another liberal know it all, aren't you? I've never used a religious argument in this thread, and yet you demonize me as a religious nut. I am arguing for the lives of human beings and you infer that I just might be a fertilizer bomber.
Does this little snippet give anyone who may read this some insight into the huge divide between Left and Right?
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
It should give some insight. You just refused the debate. Entirely. And reverted back to your own metaphysical conclusion that a zygote is a human.
YES it is a religious, moral, philosophical and scientific question. You are not arguing for the lives of human beings. STOP KIDDING YOURSELF. You are arguing for your own personal definition of when a group of cells become a human being, and then seeking to impose that on others.
Kind of what I suspected. You are not capable of debate on this subject.
YES it is a religious, moral, philosophical and scientific question. You are not arguing for the lives of human beings. STOP KIDDING YOURSELF. You are arguing for your own personal definition of when a group of cells become a human being, and then seeking to impose that on others.
Kind of what I suspected. You are not capable of debate on this subject.
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