Stroker 347 Engine
- Thread starter swede30
- Start date
Neal
Lifetime Supporter
Compression and cam will ultimately dictate how well the combo works. Stroking typically generates a broader torque curve. There are many 331 and 347 combinations that have proven very reliable. I've built a number of 347 motors ranging from 400 to 500HP and all have outlived my heavy foot without eccessive oil consumption or parts braking. Use good parts, make sensible choices about what you want out of the motor and take the leap!
Jim Dewar
Supporter
Hello Neal,
What compression and cam would you recommend?
I am considering a long block 347 from Coast High Performance with 185 AFR heads and Probe flat top pistons with releifs for valve clearance.These guys build this engine for less than I can purchase the parts. They also have AFRs in stock.
Jim
What compression and cam would you recommend?
I am considering a long block 347 from Coast High Performance with 185 AFR heads and Probe flat top pistons with releifs for valve clearance.These guys build this engine for less than I can purchase the parts. They also have AFRs in stock.
Jim
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Jim,
What do you plan to do with the car? What sort of RPM range do you want out of the engine? What kind of transaxle are you using? What type of induction do you plan to use?
The answers to these may help make the difference in how you make the decision between the subtle differences between a 302, 331, 347 or one of the many variants that are possible.
Personally, I think the 331 is the ideal choice in general terms. Really, its the 3.25" stroke/5.4" rod combination, from there you can increase displacement with bore size up to the point the block will allow. You increase displacement with this setup to keep velocities up in big induction parts and you don't get too high of piston velocities even at higher rpms which are generally desirable with the gearing that is available with the popular transaxles. This displacement should be perfect for your AFR185s. In most cases you won't have as much machining on the block either.
Regards,
Lynn
What do you plan to do with the car? What sort of RPM range do you want out of the engine? What kind of transaxle are you using? What type of induction do you plan to use?
The answers to these may help make the difference in how you make the decision between the subtle differences between a 302, 331, 347 or one of the many variants that are possible.
Personally, I think the 331 is the ideal choice in general terms. Really, its the 3.25" stroke/5.4" rod combination, from there you can increase displacement with bore size up to the point the block will allow. You increase displacement with this setup to keep velocities up in big induction parts and you don't get too high of piston velocities even at higher rpms which are generally desirable with the gearing that is available with the popular transaxles. This displacement should be perfect for your AFR185s. In most cases you won't have as much machining on the block either.
Regards,
Lynn
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Jim,
Sounds like you have decided on a 347. Like Neil said the cam choice will dictate the engines behavior and should factor in the Audi transaxle; you may want to get the torque/hp curves a little higher in the rpm range than most engine builders (read drag engine builders) are used to designing for. This is not only because of the gear ratios, but also to lower the chance of braking something. You'll still end up with plenty
I know Audi boxes are relatively cheap, but it is a PITA to have to change them or at least to have your car down while you do it.
Have you talked with Ron Earp (Apex)? He has a RF with a 347. He has also been through the debate with himself as to where to put the torque wrt rpm. Not sure he has yet decided if he will change his setup or not.
Regards,
Lynn
Sounds like you have decided on a 347. Like Neil said the cam choice will dictate the engines behavior and should factor in the Audi transaxle; you may want to get the torque/hp curves a little higher in the rpm range than most engine builders (read drag engine builders) are used to designing for. This is not only because of the gear ratios, but also to lower the chance of braking something. You'll still end up with plenty
I know Audi boxes are relatively cheap, but it is a PITA to have to change them or at least to have your car down while you do it. Have you talked with Ron Earp (Apex)? He has a RF with a 347. He has also been through the debate with himself as to where to put the torque wrt rpm. Not sure he has yet decided if he will change his setup or not.
Regards,
Lynn
Hi Jim,
Lynns' right on with the gearbox combination. I enjoyed reading the thread and the suggestions offered but was shocked when I got to your transaxle choice. Go ZF or Porsche my freind, the 016 won't take a 347 unless you drive it like a stock 302 then what's the point?
Lynns' right on with the gearbox combination. I enjoyed reading the thread and the suggestions offered but was shocked when I got to your transaxle choice. Go ZF or Porsche my freind, the 016 won't take a 347 unless you drive it like a stock 302 then what's the point?
I think you'll find the 347 is a good choice. With good-flowing heads you can run a streetable cam and still make good power.
As for the transaxle, I agree that an 016 may be over-taxed with a strong 347, especially if you go with wide tires. However, the Audi 01E is a good choice and can be readily adapted to the RF kit. I just had a conversation with Heinz Kluge in Germany this morning. He did development work for Audi and runs a transmission repair shop over there. He told me that the 01E transmission is 50% stronger than the 016. He will give me a quote next week to build an 01E for me with some "special" parts that Audi made up for him. Apparently, the metallurgy is omproved over stock and all the gear teeth are are shot peened. This box would also be fitted with the mechanical oil pump. The torque specification I gave him was 600 Nm (~450 lb-ft); he said there would be no problem meeting it.
As for the transaxle, I agree that an 016 may be over-taxed with a strong 347, especially if you go with wide tires. However, the Audi 01E is a good choice and can be readily adapted to the RF kit. I just had a conversation with Heinz Kluge in Germany this morning. He did development work for Audi and runs a transmission repair shop over there. He told me that the 01E transmission is 50% stronger than the 016. He will give me a quote next week to build an 01E for me with some "special" parts that Audi made up for him. Apparently, the metallurgy is omproved over stock and all the gear teeth are are shot peened. This box would also be fitted with the mechanical oil pump. The torque specification I gave him was 600 Nm (~450 lb-ft); he said there would be no problem meeting it.
I'll ask the question again. Has anyone else broken a 016 with over 425 hp without trying to launch at 6,000 rpm? When I have timed my launches ( nothing scientific ) to distance with my 016 I barely break loose the tires, then at about 4,000 rpm I shift to 2 nd. until 6,000 rpm and so on at 6,000 rpm for the rest of the gears. This seems to get me down the asfalt much faster. First gear gets you rolling, but 2 nd gear really gets you to fly. Maybe I'll have to be the guinny pig. Everyone seems to say that the 016 won't handle it, but I have not seen any proof of it yet. Now if someone wants to get into the new sport of " SLIDING " then I think you nay sayers would be right. Joseph /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif PS: as you can see by the picture of my CAV it is so fast it is just a blur. I'll have to slow it down to make the picture clearer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ron Earp
Admin
Every one of them that I know of that has broken, about four now, has been broken on launch drag racing. Ask Hershal, he can tell you about it. I don't think you'll have issues driving it on a road course or driving it hard, jsut those lanuches with sticky tires is what will roast it in my opinion.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Keith,
You are right there was. I have a feeling that this was an anomaly for Coast. Although with the phenomenal growth they have had, they have also had the statistical growth in problems one would expect.
But, in this case we saw the words that were written, but we didn't hear the phone conversations or the tone of voice that was used. Virtually, everyone who commented said that they had great customer service from CHP, so there is more to the story of why this individual had such an atypical experience. If we had 2 or 3 similar notes (or I had seen 2 or 3 similar stories on other forums), I'd be the first to chime in with warnings, but that just isn't the case.
Lynn
You are right there was. I have a feeling that this was an anomaly for Coast. Although with the phenomenal growth they have had, they have also had the statistical growth in problems one would expect.
But, in this case we saw the words that were written, but we didn't hear the phone conversations or the tone of voice that was used. Virtually, everyone who commented said that they had great customer service from CHP, so there is more to the story of why this individual had such an atypical experience. If we had 2 or 3 similar notes (or I had seen 2 or 3 similar stories on other forums), I'd be the first to chime in with warnings, but that just isn't the case.
Lynn
Yep, Ron is correct. I did a humongus 5000 RPM burnout at
R&G and the torque was so severe that it pulled the mid section input shaft bearing out of it's race. Part of the race casting fell off into the gears and I could not go into reverse. I had to limp down the strip in second. When I got home I had my trans guy go through it and he told me that I pushed the clutch in at just the right time. If I had stayed on it anothe second I would have totally lunched the transaxle. I bought a new mid-section and bearing set and was back in business.
Since then I have done a few more small burn outs but I stayed under 3000 RPM. I did R&G again on the same trans and all went well. I did lose the seal in my slave cylinder and it sprayed my clutch with fluid causing it to slip during the drag strip sessions. I still managed a 13:90 at 114 with the clutch slipping the whole time. I new I should have put in the new master cylinder but noooo!, I had to save it and use the old one that was still in the trans when I bought it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
From what I have seen so far, you can use any size motor you want with the 016 as long as you keep the torque around 370 Ft Lbs. Mark is right on with the 01E box as it will hold up much better with gobbs more horses. After all, they come in A8's and RS6 rated over 450HP. As light as a GT40 is there should be no problems. This my next trans when I get my new engine from Jerry Jansing, who by the way is a dealer for one of the best engine building companies there is. I have installed one of those engines into the Gulf car and can tell you it was sweet. I mean it was smooth power all through the range. It felt way stronger with a smoother delivery than mine. Please e mail Jerry if you need info on the motors. The prices are way better than Coast and they use AFR heads to.
Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
R&G and the torque was so severe that it pulled the mid section input shaft bearing out of it's race. Part of the race casting fell off into the gears and I could not go into reverse. I had to limp down the strip in second. When I got home I had my trans guy go through it and he told me that I pushed the clutch in at just the right time. If I had stayed on it anothe second I would have totally lunched the transaxle. I bought a new mid-section and bearing set and was back in business.
Since then I have done a few more small burn outs but I stayed under 3000 RPM. I did R&G again on the same trans and all went well. I did lose the seal in my slave cylinder and it sprayed my clutch with fluid causing it to slip during the drag strip sessions. I still managed a 13:90 at 114 with the clutch slipping the whole time. I new I should have put in the new master cylinder but noooo!, I had to save it and use the old one that was still in the trans when I bought it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
From what I have seen so far, you can use any size motor you want with the 016 as long as you keep the torque around 370 Ft Lbs. Mark is right on with the 01E box as it will hold up much better with gobbs more horses. After all, they come in A8's and RS6 rated over 450HP. As light as a GT40 is there should be no problems. This my next trans when I get my new engine from Jerry Jansing, who by the way is a dealer for one of the best engine building companies there is. I have installed one of those engines into the Gulf car and can tell you it was sweet. I mean it was smooth power all through the range. It felt way stronger with a smoother delivery than mine. Please e mail Jerry if you need info on the motors. The prices are way better than Coast and they use AFR heads to.
Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Hersh
What's the latest on the new 5th gear Robert developed?
Ready for sale yet?
MikeD
What's the latest on the new 5th gear Robert developed?
Ready for sale yet?
MikeD
Hersh,
do you have an e-mail or web address for Jerry - I'm getting ready to seriously start spec'ing my motor and would like to talk to him.
thanks
do you have an e-mail or web address for Jerry - I'm getting ready to seriously start spec'ing my motor and would like to talk to him.
thanks
Point taken Lynn. The problem with the consumer watch section when researching services/suppliers is that the threads often tail off into nothing, so any bad experience posted (as per Probe 427) often leaves us hanging with no end story. This obviously leaves a question mark hanging for anyone contemplating a deal with Coast for example, and it is probably unfair on their reputation as a result. As you rightly point out even the best can scew up sometimes and it's how they deal with the mess that counts. I wonder if it would be prudent to insist on a full history for anyone who posts a bad experience on this section? (Unless there are multiple similar complaints against one outfit)
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Keith,
We could insist all we want, but it will never or, at best, hardly ever happen. As a reader, I think one must, not unlike a jury deciding a case, look for a preponderance of the evidence. You must ask yourself, "Is this just some guy who got pissed and wanted to lash out, and then never followed up when he either got action or got distracted long enough to forget about this windmill he was tilting at?" But, if there are several individuals who can corroborate that this is a pattern of behavior for the subject of the complaint, then one can lend a bit more credence to the accusations. In either case, one should do his own research and decide for himself. The vendor may indeed be a slimy weazle, but then again, maybe it was a bad employee or the firm has changed hands or management since the issue was raised. Personally, I would never make a judgement based on one persons remarks.
Regards,
Lynn
We could insist all we want, but it will never or, at best, hardly ever happen. As a reader, I think one must, not unlike a jury deciding a case, look for a preponderance of the evidence. You must ask yourself, "Is this just some guy who got pissed and wanted to lash out, and then never followed up when he either got action or got distracted long enough to forget about this windmill he was tilting at?" But, if there are several individuals who can corroborate that this is a pattern of behavior for the subject of the complaint, then one can lend a bit more credence to the accusations. In either case, one should do his own research and decide for himself. The vendor may indeed be a slimy weazle, but then again, maybe it was a bad employee or the firm has changed hands or management since the issue was raised. Personally, I would never make a judgement based on one persons remarks.
Regards,
Lynn
