T70 Spyder Track Day Outing #2 Completed

Randy V

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Re: T70 Spyder Track Day Outing #2 Planned

Jac - Thanks for all the great ideas.. I've wanted to model the ackerman to scale on these cars for quite some time. What I'd really like to know id how much Ackerman or Anti-Ackerman the originals had and how they respond to more or less of same...

This is what I've done --- hopefully will be able to test drive it this w'end
-- may have to take some shims out to raise the rack a bit

How far did you drop the rack?

Will you be offering the steering arms for sale?
 

flatchat(Chris)

Supporter
Re: T70 Spyder Track Day Outing #2 Planned

Randy, all the shims that came with the "kit" went in, 1/2" I think --any way, when we get some track time we'll be able to comment more positively to what works best
 

Ron Earp

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Re: T70 Spyder Track Day Outing #2 Planned

. After fabricating the housing etc I trial fitted it in the car & checked for full & free movement etc, the crew chief was on hand & we noticed what seemed to be excessive play in the upper front LH rod end, ...soooo we removed the arm to check it & found it had been ' doctored' with a piece of heater hose to replace the ball.... chucked a new rod end in and tried again.... with that 'new' rod end the diff housing travel was now limited to about two inches up/down when any angle of roll was simulated.... lesson learned & old 'fugly rubber' rubber rod end refitted..... never built a four link since, always three bars or versions thereoff.... had we not tried the 'empty' housing first we might never have noticed it & introduced an ongoing problem to that car.... sometimes you have to do it wrong to learn how to do it right..

Oddly enough, in our restrictive rules set bushings are free. And free is free, so with some of the solid axle RX7 setups they use "air" as the bushing material, or expandable foam, to avoid the binding issues. Just like you guys did with the heater hose.

I've got solid bushings on all the suspension mounting. But, the trick ticket is spherical bearings which are, again oddly enough with our rules, completely legal.

The old Z is, well, old. But I must say I really enjoy driving that car. I'm comfortable in it, I know exactly what it will and won't do (mostly), and the results are all up to me on that given day. That said, I don't know how "hard" or "easy" it is to drive since I have few references. I know it is a lot more difficult to drive than a Spec Miata, but in comparison to this T70 then it becomes an entirely different game. Maybe having to deal with all the quirks of the Z will make me more confident in a "real" car. On the other hand they may have made me into a hamfisted driver!
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Re: T70 Spyder Track Day Outing #2 Planned

Had a good day today. Ron took the car out first and reported the steering was fixed, but handling still left a lot to be desired. He snap spun it a couple of times, and I did to to in the second session. Car still did not feel right.

Jeff G. and Jeff R. went to work during the lunch break -- we figured we were running out of suspension travel on the rear, causing instant infinite spring rate.....plus brake bias was wrong since it was impossible to trail brake.

I did 3rd session in the car and it was getting VERY close to right -- FINALLY a ball to drive. Trail brake, check. Some confidence/speed up the uphill esses -- check. Just exploding out of Hog's Pen, check.

Came in to check tire pressures and noticed we had destroyed both CV boots, so parked the car before we lost a CV joint. But, all in all, a good day. Still a lot of work to do before the car is capable of 13 hours, but we are getting there.
 

Ron Earp

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Re: T70 Spyder Track Day Outing #2 Planned

I agree with what Jeff Y has said - the test day was a success. The car is very close to being right and we are now on the correct path. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Jeff did a good job with the summary but for a few more details: I had the car out for the first 45 min session in some 33F weather, serious cold for those familiar with the typically decent weather here in NC toward late Febuary. The suspension had been placed on full soft and I ran a few laps to check engine, tranny, and overall feel of the car. First observation – the steering was fixed. It was light, fast, and a joy to use. No dartiness and no ill effects jumping curbing. Basically the steering was just like it wasn’t there and it did what you told it to do. Secondly, the suspension was far better that our previous outing. We clearly had set the double adjustable shocks up far too high in our last event. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
After a few laps and a bit of heat in the tires I started to push the car. We’d upped the rev limit to 6000 RPM and I was now reaching that about 800 feet before the end of the back straight. 6000 RPM is an honest 144 mph as the car is geared and tyred so moving pretty good. Stability was fine, although I suspect in that 5500-6000 range we’re getting a bit of lift on the nose, but nothing concerning at that speed. As I became more confident I pushed harder. And, the car pushed back. I spun in T4 at about 50 mph just getting a bit confident on corner exit and giving it a boot of throttle. Next lap I looped it in T5/T6 and still haven't figured out what I did there to deserve it. And I had a little bobble out of Oak Tree, probably a lot of throttle but not sure. All in all it was good.
<o:p> </o:p>
Back into the pits and a few things were tended to – oil out of the tranny breather (must make a good catch can),and the CV boots were throwing a bit of grease around. We cleaned everything up and put Jeff in the car for the 35 min session. Car ran well, and Jeff drove it a bit harder than I did the first session with no ill effects. He was coming in every 2-3 laps while we were adjusting compression and rebound, so a true setup session more than anything else. The car was getting a bit better but still not “there” as far as driving it all out. He had a couple of offs and we were still chasing the rear a bit and with harder driving the braking was less than optimal with F/R bias.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
During lunch we investigated the tranny breather issue, adjusted the brake bias (still don’t have a cockpit adjustable knob, will fix that), checked the suspension setup (found we’d developed a tiny bit of toe out in the front), raised the rear to make sure we didn’t bottom out (we’d made some modifications to the shock mounting ears, they might not have been good modifications!), bled the brakes, and inspected the CV boots. And had a burger. All good, ready for session three. Jeff was selected for session three and I was to run session four which as the last session of the day. The weather had improved dramatically and we now were full sun and around 55F. A welcome change from the poor weather we’ve had for the last few weeks. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Jeff went out with the video camera in the car and I went off to snap some pictures. The session went well, as Jeff has already stated. He ran about eight or nine hard laps and then came in for a general checkout and discussion. The best thing to see was that he had a smile on his face when he stopped and said “That was fun! Awesome!”, the best thing a pit crew can hear. We went to checking the car and tire temps showed we had a shade too much camber in the front at our -1.0, so I imagine we need something around -0.75 or so. Our rears were almost spot on as we’d been adjusting them already. Tire pressures were a tad too high. Water temps good, oil temps tolerable, and diff temp fine. However, the CV boots had let go and sprayed grease all over the rear. We were done for the day, but we’d collected a lot of data and the car was now getting into the zone. I wasn’t bummed about missing the last session as I had not been feeling all that great throughout the day, but I was disappointed that we wouldn’t get one of our crew guys, Jeff G., into the car for some seat time. Jeff G. wasn’t unhappy though as he was pleased to see all of his work had paid off in the form of a good racing car.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
All in all a very successful day. Incidentally this test day was run in conjunction with a NASA race weekend. We have both SCCA and NASA logobooks for the Lola so we can do both, but, for those that don’t run NASA (I don’t) it is a different sort of culture. 715am, I’m unloading the trailer, and booming over the PA in a boxer announcing voice comes “Weeeeeelllllllcome to VIR! Bing Bong, it is 715AM……..NASA time!!!!!” some announcements followed, and then the PA was turned on to some loud music up until the driver’s meeting at 745am. Meanwhile, engines are running, revving, lots of cars with big wings and so on. Now, in stark contrast, just running a race engine before 8am at an SCCA event nets you a nice $100 fine. The NASA driver’s meeting at 745. I look around and something immediately sticks out – the average weight of a NASA driver is far less than the average weight of an SCCA driver. Make of that what you will. The NASA test day was well done and was run ON TIME, the SCCA could definitely take some notes there. Anyway, NASA seem like good people.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
So Z work is up next at Garage Earp. The points season starts in two weeks and I want some. The Lola will be put away for a bit but will be street driven while we’re doing some fixing and developing on a couple of minor items such as the CV boots etc.<o:p></o:p> One thing we have to change is the windscreen height. It either has to be much taller, or shorter - no two ways around it. Be looking for plexigals cutting tips soon.
<o:p> </o:p>
Here are a few photos:


straight.jpg



T3.jpg



getyourleanon.jpg



T3exit.jpg




<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
 
Ron
Setting up a car sure is much more work than bikes! Hhhhhmmm, maybe it was not such a good idea to go 4 wheeling..... Thanks for the reports and some clues.

Drivers meetings -
A friend used to bust out loud Gangsta Rap at 7:00am on race weekends, needless to say this pasty faced white executive guy with his hat on sideways, grabbing his crotch while waiving the other hand overhead making some gangland sign with his fingers was just too damn funny to shoot. But the weapons were always loaded just in case he bombed!

Now he just does it on our trips to Utah dirt riding....we can get rid of the body out there, no probelma.
 

Randy V

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Congratulations!

I wonder what the deal was with the CV boots? What sort of angles are you running on the half-shafts at ride height?
 
The driveshaft shop is the axle manufacturer I use and they will have all the answers and probably have no problem supplying new ones FOC...
Frank , the owner is a great guy...
I have had one customer with a track SL-C (410cu sprint car engine) have some boot clamps that worked loose and Frank replaced them FOC for him also.

The driveshaft angles are well within the known good/safe range...
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Dang, trying to get some video up on youtube but I'm not having any luck. Check back later.

I wonder what the deal was with the CV boots? What sort of angles are you running on the half-shafts at ride height?

I don't think there is anything "wrong" with the CV boots except for that they failed. The angle they are working through is maybe 10-14 degrees. however, I called The Driveshaft Shop months ago to verify and they said no worries, the angle was far less than the sand rails and other types of vehicles that run their product. Seemed like good people and I plan to have them make a driveshaft for the Torino.

Good day though! The car ran well and I'm confident we're on the right path. Mesa, I've never developed a bike for track work, it is a lot shorter? One think that we're doing differently on this car compared to our other efforts is we're doing all the development upfront before we attempt to race it. With my Z we were always mixing testing with race weekends and that isn't ideal. I think we'll have two more test days of work to do. The car is now driving fast, but it can certainly be tweeked. We've got a few more things to check out, some suspension/handling, but also practical issues like endurance with full fuel and whatnot. :thumbsup:
 
I think an experienced bike racer can get a bike near fully set up in three test weekends. Maybe one if he has all the tuning parts needed and he gets lucky (springs, shocks, suspension links). Usually the pain is rebuilding the shocks or the forks on site, fortunately my suspension guru attended test sessions (along with his truck full of goodies) with me so work could progress much faster.

The part were you describe spinning for unknown reasons is alarming to me, as on a bike we don't get the luxury of these kind of unknowns. I suppose if I were a rookie trying to tune a bike it could take MUCH longer for this very reason, you don't really have ability to sustain too many of those kind of surprises and learn anything. New guys can take a year to set up a bike and even then it probably isnt correct, just because they don't know what they don't know and can't afford to "spin out" to find the answers.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Part of car setup is definitely finding the limits -- and part of that is spinning. There are a couple of safe places to really push the car at VIR (where Ron spun the first time is one of them), and you have to do so there to really get the car sorted.

Now, the unexplained stuff we had happen, well, that was spooky and something we are working on sorting out via trying to figure out if we are running out of suspension travel.

We're learning. Still new to the setup game.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Man, having a heck of a time with Youtube and video. I manage to upload a couple of laps, a slow outlap and two pretty slow laps after that. The HD Youtube files are quite large and problematic to upload. Sorry about the sound, just no way to get good sound without resorting to a separate mic far away from the slipstream.

YouTube - RCR T70 Spyder at VIR Feb 2010

I never noticed the windscreen deflected downward so much at speed. Might be a lot of head buffeting if we cut it way down. A bit of wheelspin in T1 at about 7:30 and for some reason the fast, and well-driven Ferrari 430 race car coming on track or doing a warm up lap at around 8 mins. That was a pretty car and one of the drivers that shoed it around was really quick, plus it had some serious power.

Yep, track setup takes time. I feel we're making good progress though and have a handle on things. With one or two more test days we'll be good to go. But, for now the development will be put on hold for a bit as the racing season starts in two weeks.
<object height="315" width="500">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0VaDaCyFBug&hl=en_US&fs=1&hd=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="315" width="500"></object>
 

Randy V

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I don't think there is anything "wrong" with the CV boots except for that they failed. The angle they are working through is maybe 10-14 degrees. however, I called The Driveshaft Shop months ago to verify and they said no worries, the angle was far less than the sand rails and other types of vehicles that run their product. Seemed like good people and I plan to have them make a driveshaft for the Torino.

I think the Driveshaft Shop does some very nice work and I'm certain they will stand behind their product.
I didn't mean to rattle anyones cage re: the angles - however - good CV boots don't fail unless they were subject to conditions well outside their normal operating range or got excessively hot.
I worked on a 4wd GMC Pickup recently that had over 300k miles on it and was also used as a plow truck - still on it's original from CVs and boots. Hence the reason my asking..

I have your video buffering in another window now... :)
 

Ron Earp

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- good CV boots don't fail unless they were subject to conditions well outside their normal operating range or got excessively hot.

No doubt. I'm now wondering what we might have done to cause it. We had some high heat way back in October - high oil temps, water temps, header temps, and tranny temps. On top of that, an even worse, I think the way we used to have the car setup the boot almost touched the the chassis. At RPM the boot would expand a bit and could have cut itself with friction on the chassis. We had grease coming out the last session of the first test day, so I bet we cut them. We'll get them sorted.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Fran, it IS fun, that car is a lot of fun to drive once set up. I liked the Nemesis a lot but this is a different beast altogether. The torque coupled with that chassis is a lot of fun.....lots of fun.

Great work on the car.

Thanks Fran.

Jeff
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Boy..that looks like fun...and all that with a 225hp fuel sipper....

It is fun!

As poorly as I have it tuned I don't even know if it is that much. It runs for a long time on a tank of fuel. There are still some variables to consider before I pass judgment, but, our initial data suggests that we'll get right at a 2 hour stint from it per tank.

We wanted to use the dyno at the track Friday afternoon but their A/F gauge went on the fritz and I've not yet fitted one to the car. So, I sort of figured a hp number wasn't worth the time/money. I'll get it to a local dyno that we know and trust. I'm pretty sure my ignition timing is right, but the A/F is off for sure.

And if we want more power - just add bumpstick. The bottom end, heads and intake are a fairly decent platform for additional growth (within reason of course).
 

Randy V

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Just finished watching the video... The V8 grunt is intoxicating isn't it? :)

Looks to me like you have ample power to have a lot of fun and reliability to boot.

So from the appearances, the car does not seem to exhibit any push on corner entry - without seeing the steering wheel input, it's not possible to tell steering delay though..

Braking - One thing that I really picked up on with my Cobra with it's 55% rear weight distribution, was that I could dial in a LOT more rear brake than I had originally thought.. I suspect that the Lola would be in the same category..
I saw a bit of loose coming off a few corners, what was it like in trail braking?
 
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