Tracking a SPF

[Mike]

Oltroff told me his clients race cars go 2 seansons of races every other weekend before redo

If you are talking to Dennis and he is telling you how it is, I have to ask... why are you on here asking questions? Dennis probably has more track miles on his 40 than everyone on here combined. Are you not satisfied with his answers? I'll only speak for myself. When I want to know... I call Dennis. I feel no need to ask anyone else after he has provided me the answer to my question. Its Olthoff not Oltroff BTW

 

[Mike]

Not to pile on Sean but Dennis' time is hard to come by. I appreciate it immensely when he makes time to take my calls and answer my questions. If he is doing the same for you then go with it and don't repeat the questions to a bunch of internet wankers.

 

[Sean]

It's hard for me to really think of anything that you don't have to check. I did tech a couple of times and I can't tell you how many loose wheel bearings I found. I'm talking about a eighth inch of free play for god sake. People just don't know because they have never run a car hard for a couple of hundred miles in a week end before and they just don't realize how much stress it puts on things.

My advice is to talk to some other guys at the track and start to make a check list. Pre weekend, beginning of second day, between sessions, and return to garage. Then a maintenance schedule such as oil changes, brake fluid change out, brake pads, belts, repack bearings, etc.

Make this a living document that gets more refined as you progress. After a couple of years you will have a pretty good idea what you cars needs.


I am one of the, easy on the HP, people around here. 5500-6000RPM 351 SBF with hyd lifters @ 400Hp is all that is needed for a very fun open track car. Save the rest for good brakes and tires. Start slow and on street tires, and when you feel that the tires are the limiting factor of your lap times then think about another set of wheels and Hoosiers.

A word on driving schools here is also in order.

If you can get a 400hp GT40 lapping as fast it can on slicks then you're there baby!

The living document idea is great. I already have one for suspension settings by track.

Racing schools did Skip barger 1 and 2 10 years ago, do a refresher everery other year. One thing I know a 450 or 500 hp 2300lbs car is going to be very different to my cirrent 1900lbs(wet) 200hp car. I dont think there is aschool that teaches that.

On the lotus I found the transition from r compounds to slicks really good. The stiffer sidewall of the slicks made the car more predictable on the limit for me and corrections easier to do. Plus with slicks when they go off then you really have to drive smooth as a baby.

Oltroff suggested bias ply racing tyres to start a s they are very predicatble and allow for a degree of recoverable lattitude in terms of slip before things become fatal. Once dialed in tot he car I do plan on some 17 in wheels with hoosiers for cost and grip.

Currently I run full yoko soft compound slicks on the lotus. Even then thye take a few laps to get into the mood.

One of the appeals of the GT40 is its roadable, because bonding with a car does not always have to be at high speed on the track. And of course there are road rallies to do.

On the motor fron I am shying away from the 351 motors becaue I think the torque down low is abit too strong and halfshaft etc dont love it, not to mention driveability out of bends. Thinking more along the lines of a 302 based motor which will be softer low down and more modulatable over awider rev range.

Origionaly I though of a rossion, but while they have agreat cassis I have never seen a rossion or noble do great lap times. I think the on boos power dleivery is so extreme that how to do really drive the thing on track. Plus always loved GT40.

After a lotus wher do you go. A Gt3 porche is paddle crap now, and I think areally expensive car to run on track. Used porches are pot luck, I like to start new that way i know everything its been through. Compred to the lowly lotus a cayman is heavy and frankly slow through the bends. An e36 bmw made for the track seems nice, but those cars always seem to need serious work on something and half the time they dont run. Vettes are too big too heavy no finesse and the same with vipers.

My thought and maybe I am wrong is that a GT40 has a great chassis, is light at 2300 lbs so should be somewhat nimble amd of course has great motor. i will keep the lotus for tight tracks and noise restricted days(lrp) and have the Gt40 for the big tracks like the glenn, nj and the few unmuffled days at lrp. Plus there are road rallies to do.

But maybe I have the wrong idea and a gt40 is the wrong car for this. Maybe its too unresolved chassis wise.

But to mme it seems to be alight relatively small mid engined car, many of the origionals survived which means its robust and relatively predictable.
I kniow a pure track car is going to be better for track, but having driven singe seaters for 2 years i know how those beat you up.

Seems most here are road cars.

 

[Sean]

Not to pile on Sean but Dennis' time is hard to come by. I appreciate it immensely when he makes time to take my calls and answer my questions. If he is doing the same for you then go with it and don't repeat the questions to a bunch of internet wankers.

Good laugh thanks.

Yes Dennis does give me his time. 2 years ago when there was the genesis of this I spent aday with him in his shop. I ask here because Dennis races and I though there may be people here who do trackdays and have other experience in terms of vehicle durability in that enviroment.

Dennis is going to build up the car and I am going with all his suggestions. The one debate is the motor. I had thought aluminum block, Dennis suggests Iron as it can then be vintage raced on the east coast. Maybe I would try a race each year if it was close by(glenn, lrp). But between work wife kids etc I dont have the time to do much more than that.

I also need the car to be streetable, as there are many weekends when it great to go for a 20-30 miles backroad drive,

I do have tracks close by and seem able to get in 12-15 track days per year shedule permitting.

So my spec is somewhere between a race car and a street car. iortunatly I dont need to worry about traffic of sitting at lights and the roads are relatively smooth.

Dennis says go for the carb as the FI is a pain and better to spend the money on internals, which I agree.

So the seminal question is do I go for a hydraulic or solid motor. Seems for track work hydraulics is going to be limited with potential issues. But If I have to asjust valves every 500 miles then maybe I shoud go for a hydraulic 351 type motor and accept the weight and lack of raceability.

Or maybe what I am looking for and GT40 are not compatiable. I suppose that is why i ask here, because maybe others have similar use and exerience, but perhaps not.

 

[Mike]

Good luck with your endeavors. I don't think you can go wrong working with Dennis. I went with a Windsor block from Roush and while there have been times I wish I would have detoured slightly from some of my some of my choices, I am pretty pleased. I have spent a lot of time and money making some mechanical and aesthetic changes but that frankly has been the most enjoyable part of ownership other than driving it. If I didn't have so many other expensive and time consuming hobbies, I would love to get more into putting it on the track now and then. Looking forward to seeing yours ripping it up around the circuit.

 

[Rich E.]

In reading your posts I'd opt away from a GT40 as a track car. I have a superformance GT40 for weekend fun and a LS7 powered RX-7 for track duty. Why? If I wad up the RX-7 its easily replaceable more so than the GT40.

My recommendation to you: A C5 Z06. Add functional aero and suspension, a good set of Hoosier's along with a nice set of brakes, dry sump it, and maybe a heads/cam package down the road and your golden. If maintained well the consumables are reasonably affordable and they are really reliable.

.02

 

[Sean]

In reading your posts I'd opt away from a GT40 as a track car. I have a superformance GT40 for weekend fun and a LS7 powered RX-7 for track duty. Why? If I wad up the RX-7 its easily replaceable more so than the GT40.

My recommendation to you: A C5 Z06. Add functional aero and suspension, a good set of Hoosier's along with a nice set of brakes, dry sump it, and maybe a heads/cam package down the road and your golden. If maintained well the consumables are reasonably affordable and they are really reliable.

.02

I see a lot of c5 and c6 vettes. At this point in the lil ol lotus I am quicker than tem through most bends. On the straights or the big sweepers its different. I also find evttes to be fast but not engaging to drive, maybe the c7 will be different.

My thoughts on the Gt40, and maybee I am wrong, is thta it will be like a bigger faster lotus. I know there is no aero, but by the mid 60's I think they had chassis dynamics sorted out. But maybee I am wrong.

Had thought of a Gt3 porche, but you cant buy new with a stick, I dont want to be fixing someone elses defred mainbtanance and its expensive to run.

But if a GT40 is a pig on track, then maybe its not for me. The cirdeness I can happily deal with, the question is how does the machine handle. Frankly between shocks speings pads and tires most modern cars can go round corners well. Now an older car may just nnot have the dynamic ability. When i see 70's or 80's air colloed pirches on track, no matter how welll done they are, they are still slow particularily on the bends.

Now I am sure a pro in a z06 is going to be hard to beat, question is whther a GT40 is in the hunt, or its just hoplessly outclassed.

Right now I can get my NA 195 hp elise down to 102 at LRP and 2.18 at the glenn. I ams ure there is a little more in it but not much. The rteally fast cars i run with get down to maybe 58secs at LRP and down around 2;10 at the glenn. So what could a Gt40 on hoosiers do?

Someone suggested to just get a lotus exige v6, but its not the same expoerience as a Gt40.

It dies not have to be ultimate speed, just in the hunt. If ultimate speed was all it was a bout then we would all go paddle crap.

 

[Sean]

In reading your posts I'd opt away from a GT40 as a track car. I have a superformance GT40 for weekend fun and a LS7 powered RX-7 for track duty. Why? If I wad up the RX-7 its easily replaceable more so than the GT40.

My recommendation to you: A C5 Z06. Add functional aero and suspension, a good set of Hoosier's along with a nice set of brakes, dry sump it, and maybe a heads/cam package down the road and your golden. If maintained well the consumables are reasonably affordable and they are really reliable.

.02

I see a lot of c5 and c6 vettes. At this point in the lil ol lotus I am quicker than them through most bends. On the straights or the big sweepers its different. I also find vettes to be fast but not engaging to drive, maybe the c7 will be different.

My thoughts on the Gt40, and maybee I am wrong, is that it will be like a bigger faster lotus. I know there is no aero, and its otherwise crude but by the mid 60's I think they had chassis dynamics sorted out. But maybe I am wrong. It just seems that a 2300lbs car with great suspension shoudl be quick.

Had thought of a Gt3 porche, but you cant buy new with a stick, I dont want to be fixing someone elses defered mainbtanance and its expensive to run and the newer ones are fragile.

But if a GT40 is a pig on track, then maybe its not for me. The crudeness I can happily deal with, the question is how does the machine handle. Between shocks springs pads and tires most modern cars can go round corners well. Now an older car may just not have the dynamic ability. When i see 70's or 80's air cooled pirches on track, no matter how welll done they are, they are still slow particularily on the bends.

Now I am sure a pro in a z06 is going to be hard to beat, question is whether a GT40 on slicks with same driver is in the hunt, or its just hoplessly outclassed.

Right now I can get my NA 195 hp elise down to 1:02 at LRP and 2.18 at the glenn. I am sure there is a little more in it but not much. The really fast cars I run with get down to maybe 58secs at LRP and down around 2;10 at the glenn. So what could a Gt40 on hoosiers do?

Someone suggested to just get a lotus exige v6, but its not the same experience as a Gt40.

It does not have to be ultimate lap time, just in the hunt. If ultimate lap time was all it was a bout then we would all go paddle crap.

On the street I drive an e46 m3 and I struggle to get out of boring mode in it, its just so refined. My other street car is a ferrari 512bbi. Its twitchy and edgy, with poor brakers by modern standards. Only fun when going fast, but too fast for the street and absolutely terrible on track between poor brakes and a very nervous rear end.

If a GT40 is planted stable and predictable while also being pointable then it shoudl eb good. if the handling dynamic is flawed then maybe not. A modern vette is going to be 3000lbs plus and a Gt3 even more. So maybe I see this wrong but a 2300lbs car with the same power shoudl eb equaly as quick, unless of course the suspension is antique and does weird things liek older cars do. Now a modern cup car is of course quicker.

Your input is greatly appreciated, because maybe I am making a mistake in my thinking.

 

[DaveM]

If you think a GT40 will be a bigger faster version of your Elise you may be disappointed. I own a modified S1 Europa with 180hp Zetec and an SPF GT40 (427 Windsor) that I do track days with. The GT40 obviously has more straightaway speed, but does not have the nimble feel or braking ability of my Europa. The weight difference alone is 1000 lbs. An original design GT40 has short suspension arms with more camber change and unsprung weight is far more than a Lotus. A well sorted Europa or Elise is far closer to the single seater race cars I used to have. If you want a faster version of your Elise look at an Exige 260 or better yet a Lotus 2-11. If the fun of trackdays is the chase give thought to full road racing like SCCA in a formula car. Far more exciting.

 

[Sean]

If you think a GT40 will be a bigger faster version of your Elise you may be disappointed. I own a modified S1 Europa with 180hp Zetec and an SPF GT40 (427 Windsor) that I do track days with. The GT40 obviously has more straightaway speed, but does not have the nimble feel or braking ability of my Europa. The weight difference alone is 1000 lbs. An original design GT40 has short suspension arms with more camber change and unsprung weight is far more than a Lotus. A well sorted Europa or Elise is far closer to the single seater race cars I used to have. If you want a faster version of your Elise look at an Exige 260 or better yet a Lotus 2-11. If the fun of trackdays is the chase give thought to full road racing like SCCA in a formula car. Far more exciting.

Dave, I plan to keep the elise for the tighter smaller tracks. A 211 is an open car which I want to avoid, and frankly the elise for what it is, goes pretty damm well. Was just at the new track upstate NY called NYMST its more of a bike track. I cant see where something with more power could deploy on such a track. Vtees there were like chicanes to the lotus. But its a question of horses for courses.

At watkins glenn however the lotus does not have the drive out of corners, nor does it have the hp for the straights. That is thetype of enviroment I plan to use the spf. The cars running there are the usual smattering of vettes(z06) and porches(gt3 etc). BTW the lotus on slicks is already faster around a track than any cayman on slicks I have come across.

You actualy have experience in a spf on track, and choose to track both a lotus and a Gt40, so would greatly appreciate your feedback experience. As to racing did a little ina single seater years ago. Time and family negate being able to race, but I do understand that an iron blocked 302 spf can do some HSR races. I suppose my comitement to seriously race is not there, and I need to grab tracktime when schedule permits.

One other option is an exige v6 which is modern and fast. Would a GT40 be a dissapointment on track? The old ones are still run with gusto, so people seem to love them, and one can do road rallies in it too. My thought is to start each season in the lotus and get dialed in before running the GT40, plus for muffled days and really tight tracks the lotus will still be the car to run.

Assuming a decent driver, will I get chewed up by vettes and gt3's. Its been a real pain at events to sit on these guys tails through the bends only to have them blast off on the straghts. On a small track like LRP its not an issue because though the bends the lotus does the trick and they have to point you by. I suppose I can accept something less nimble with more firepower.

For context driving a new z06 vette does nothing for me, no matetr how fast it is on paper, whereas a GT3 porche did feel a lot like a much faster lotus. Maybe a GT40 is too ponderous? or unstable? but I lieke the raw racecar feel. If there are lots of cambe rchanges int he suspension I can see it being unstable at the limits, but everything I ever read about a Gt40 said it was kind to the driver.

i also see thet Dennis did a 2.07 at the glenn, which is about what a real hotshoe does in a zo6 or gt3 on slicks, well maybe they do a few secs better, but most drivers are not that good, and I know I am not.

The real pro spec Maiat guys do 2.22 and the lotus with me driving got down to 2.18 so power def helps there.

But yeah if the brakes are weak, and the car unsettled then a Gt40 is not going to be for me.

 

[John S]

But yeah if the brakes are weak, and the car unsettled then a Gt40 is not going to be for me.

I think it is more important for you to decide what you would like to get out of a trackday car. If you want a light and nimble car, than nothing can beat low weight like your Lotus Elise or something like a Caterham or even better a Radical SR3.
To give you an idea, the other day I tested a Radical RXC at Spa Francorchamps from the factory and although a very nice (closed) trackday car, I found it heavy and a lot less nimble than my SR3. Not strange when you consider my SR3 weighs nearly half of the RXC.

Having said that, on the same two days at Spa I also trained with a Porsche GT3 racer (on slicks of course) and although no aerodynamics that was a lot of fun. The car has a lot of grip, super brakes and seems to have some magic to it making it feel less heavy than it actually weighs.

Both these cars are modern cars and aerodynamics apart they drive like modern cars. On the same day I also had to train someone with a BMW E30 328i and compared to these two it already feels a little older. On the limit the car moves a lot more (all relatively speaking) and therefore feels a little more twisty.

Occasionally I also race a Porsche 911 from 1965 ( 2.0 liter 210 bhp at 1000 kilos) and this is completely different all together. With the suspension and Dunlop racing tyres (this year also with the much better Avons) driven at the limit this car NEVER feels like it is on rails, more the opposite. If you get that, I think it is absolute marvelous driving these racing cars moving about on the limit. Driving these cars in a perfect four wheel drift around circuits like Spa and Silverstone (unfortunately I haven't done Goodwood yet) is the best thing you can do with your trousers up.
So for me, I will set up my GTD40 like that and I will use my Radical for modern racing.

Does this mean you can't get a GT40 to handle more like a modern car? I am sure you can. Pick the right suspension, slick tyres and brakes, lower the centre of gravity, get a weight distribution as close as you can get to 50:50, stiffen the structure as much as you can... but every design has its limits.

Back to the top of reply, first decide what you want to get out of a trackday car or maybe even why you would want a GT40. That should help you to decide whether you really want a GT40 or just a light, nimble and fast trackday car.

Or catch a ride with as many different cars as you can at your local trackday.

John

 

[John S]

In my enthousiasm I completely forgot to reply to the part I quoted.

Define weak brakes.

If you mean fade, you can easily cure that.
If you mean weak stopping power, you can also fix that.
If you mean less than a modern GT1 race car, forget about getting a GT40 on 17 inch (I know some of you don't mind doing fitting those), let alone 15 inch wheels. Get a special like a Radical.

John

 

[DaveM]

I totally agree with John's assessment. A GT40 will blow you away with hp and straightaway speed. You will probably be turning much faster lap times at a fast track like the Glen or Road America. It will not corner nor brake as well as your Lotus or some modern Vette or Porsche models. I love the challenge of throttle steering a 40 out of corner. It does not corner on rails. With 15 inch wheels and 4 pot calipers it will not brake as well as your Lotus or a modern supercar. I have no experience with larger calipers and rotors (17" wheels). Actually if you want an ultimate track car with a roof I would consider the newer Ford GT. As John says it all depends what you want out of a track car.

 

[Sean]

somethimg like this car in the video probably works great.

A Ford Mk 1 GT40 at Monza is Better Than Coffee - GT40 at Monza Video is BTC - Road & Track

 

[Seymour Snerd]

somethimg like this car in the video probably works great.

A Ford Mk 1 GT40 at Monza is Better Than Coffee - GT40 at Monza Video is BTC - Road & Track

Or, you could do this for about one third the price:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rNsNnOyBW8]Radical sr3 road legal @ Monza UKRacing - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

i also see thet Dennis did a 2.07 at the glenn, which is about what a real hotshoe does in a zo6 or gt3 on slicks, well maybe they do a few secs better, but most drivers are not that good, and I know I am not.

But yeah if the brakes are weak, and the car unsettled then a Gt40 is not going to be for me.

The lap times Dennis posts are limited by the rules of the "vintage" sanctioning body. You could take quite a bit of time off with 17/18/19" tires, bigger rotors, gumball slicks, etc. But then you are not really racing a "GT40", you are running a car that is neither fish nor fowl.

It seems you are "bench racing" quite a bit and if you doubt that the GT is "to your expectations" then I would suggest you look elsewhere......but if a legend that ruled the tracks in the 60's and still offers close to supercar performance with the needed driver input (i.e. no ABS, RSC, traction control, etc.) IS for you, you can't do better!

I have never driven the Glen in a GT at more than 8/10s and I was impressed enough to understand why I am not a top level driver. I have seen Dennis run with cars that are faster than his by shear driving skill and determination......attributes I do not possess.

If you are making a purchase decision based upon an internet forum you are ALWAYS going to be disappointed!

 

[Keith]

Good Lord Rick! I want to buy a car from you....

Now..

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Good Lord Rick! I want to buy a car from you....

Now..

Just send money..............

 

[Sean]

The lap times Dennis posts are limited by the rules of the "vintage" sanctioning body. You could take quite a bit of time off with 17/18/19" tires, bigger rotors, gumball slicks, etc. But then you are not really racing a "GT40", you are running a car that is neither fish nor fowl.

It seems you are "bench racing" quite a bit and if you doubt that the GT is "to your expectations" then I would suggest you look elsewhere......but if a legend that ruled the tracks in the 60's and still offers close to supercar performance with the needed driver input (i.e. no ABS, RSC, traction control, etc.) IS for you, you can't do better!

I have never driven the Glen in a GT at more than 8/10s and I was impressed enough to understand why I am not a top level driver. I have seen Dennis run with cars that are faster than his by shear driving skill and determination......attributes I do not possess.

If you are making a purchase decision based upon an internet forum you are ALWAYS going to be disappointed!

I would say 8/10ths is going well.
Will have 15 in tires and the right pads for track, if you use the brakes too much you ar not driving properly anyway.. Prob also a set of 17's with slicks for those trackdays when there is no spec to worry about.
I think it will be OK as the compromise will be towards track use, I am not looking for something that drives ont he street like a modern. So the track bias should give what I am looking for.

By way of comparative data, what little I could find.. The guys who are really good in vettes, running slicks suspension etc can get down to 2.06 at the Glenn. Dennis did what a 2.07 on historic tires. When I was last there the fast people in Gt3 porches on slicks with pads were doing 2.13. So yeah there may well be faster cars out there, but that just means you have to drive better.

As long as the suspension dynamics are good and the tub stiff, the difference between a GT40 and a modern should boil down to refinement and aero. The crudeness of the Gt40 def has its appeal to me, and aero I can live without, esp below 160.

Dennis is going to do adjustable shocks stiffer springs and swaybars. If it ends up being great on track but impossible on the street I will live with that. If the track experience is not for me then I will go back to stock suspension and use it for a street car. If memeory servs from my one drive stock felt pretty soft. Now if on track and street its a bummer then I will take a 20-30k bath and sell. Seems the resale on these is better than most moderns.

But if you look at the number of GT40s that survive, the number still raced and or used on the road compared to their contemporaries, its clearly a robust special car to drive, so I dont see being dissapointed. But yeah its a big step and comitment to find out. The nice thing though is you can build up the car the way you like it, cant do that with a modern.

 

[Sean]

Or, you could do this for about one third the price:

Radical sr3 road legal @ Monza UKRacing - YouTube

I have done the open single seater thing, not that strong or robust. Plus where I run with a radical you lieraly will way outclass anything without trying, so where is the challenge in that. Plus I am just not that good to really drive a radical.

Someone said long ago, its not just how fast you go, but also how you go fast.

Hopefully in a GT40 I will be as fast as the modern vette and porche guys, or at least in the hunt, and still have one tremendous experience. I am sure anew GT3 with paddle crap would be faster still, and arobotised car fatser than that, but what is the point.

Plus having gotten this far I just dont do open cars, even though a caterham has appeal.