Superlite GTA

[Leon R]

If you got this offended at Fran's response, you will NOT get along with many DSM vendors...

For the record, stock DSMs pretty much suck! So I am not surprised that someone describing it as such. Fortunately, DSMs respond very well to being modified. 2G suspension can be made quite competent and bodies (other than convertibles) are relatively strong. But this is a moot point because it will all be replaced by Fran's race parts.

As for sunroof cars, as I said earlier, they are not usually used for racing because they take away ~1.5" of head clearance, which is a problem for helmet clearance. So I would try to avoid sunroof cars when looking for a donor cars. BTW, Mitsubishi automatically packaged AWD with a sunroof (unless you custom ordered them without a sunroof). So if you really want to start with an AWD car, search for Talons (and not Eclipses), they are MUCH more likely to come without a sunroof. Or... Just get a clean, southern non-turbo car

 

[Justin Hutson]

Hey Fran, any idea when we can see the pics of the subframe??

 

[doug blowers]

does anyone have an update on this project? release date? i am very interested in the details of this project. i am looking forward to seeing the finished results and pricing.

 

[Justin Hutson]

Any news of the subframes or projected finished date yet?? Im looking into buying an eclipse that I can drive around to get my boost fix and sourcing the best 6g74 mitsu block for the v6 4.2L stroker...

 

[Ben Whittle]

Fran will almost certainly post up more information when he is ready and more is available.

 

[Justin Hutson]

Nothing at all new with this?? Just getting excited to see these things ready to rock!!!! I had to go out and buy a 99 3000gt vr4 for a DD to hold me over. Car has the best bolt on turbos that support over 600awhp, not too bad for a DD but I will still need something like this apex to have for a weekend stupid fast car!

 

[Ben Whittle]

I'm sure once things with the LMP/Type D car has settled down Fran might have some news for us. On top of that they are currently moving facilities, I'm sure once that is all out of the way he Apex will become a priority then.

 

[Justin Hutson]

I'm sure once things with the LMP/Type D car has settled down Fran might have some news for us. On top of that they are currently moving facilities, I'm sure once that is all out of the way he Apex will become a priority then.

Oh I didnt realize they were moving facilities.

 

[Juice Lucas]

bumpity bump just because...

Side note... I was searching the net and ran across this. Same principle as SLC... big V8/G50 or 930 gearbox/lightweight chassis. (Sorry for temporarily highjacking thread until Fran gives us an update).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLJQYOQG59U

 

[Greg Wolfe]

Bump, I couldn't stand to see this thread slide to page 2.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Kasey]

haha, I thought there was something new. Can't wait to some updates, I got a chance to see the rossion q1 in person recently at formula Drift here in west plam beach and was surprised to see it was mainly a tube chasis car, compared to the gta, I believe the gta will be a better handling setup but will have to wait and see.

Was also curious if the gta will have comfort features like ac, power windows, radio utilizing original configuration or maybe with the isis instead.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

OK guys ...

There are a few things going on with the Apex programme...

Firstly my original intention was to make an entry level car at an entry level price...
It seems that the potential customer base for the Apex would like to have multiple drivetrain options along with lots of wow factor and higher end fixings and furnishings...potential supplied by Superlitecars......this defeats the purpose of the project really.

There are multiple schools of thought currently floating around the thinktank at the shop....

1,Forget the low entry level price and develop the car into a full blown higher
end package and actually make it a comparable product to my other offerings.

2,Only offer the kit already attached to a donor chassis and as a roller, again at a
higher price point

3,Halt development and not spend any more money or time on the project as it will
take many hundreds of units sold at the 20k package price to even break even on
the cost to bring it to market...

Part of the problem is certainly my engineering and manufacturing approach and not wanting to compromise on quality and that costs money ...which bumps the retail cost ...I already have a large pile of money and time invested in the Apex but sometimes cutting ones losses early is better than prolonging the pain and suffering....

If the Apex is to be compared to a Q1 Rossion and be better why should it be sold at $20k...especially if the quality and content that seems to be on peoples wish list is to be considered

Let me have some input from real potential customers with an intelligent perspective...the door is not yet closed ...

I look forward to reading your input..

 

[Tyson Silva]

Raise the price point base and package up options similar to the SLC menu. There are likely nearly the same number of customers at a $30k base. Just my opinion, but this project should be brought to market.

 

[Justin]

I think the Apex is in a tough position. At $20k, it's a pretty solid deal. At $30k, (where I'm at for a car at this point... But I'm saving for an SLC), it's right at the limit before a guy begins to cross shop an SLC, gtm, or whatever. I think it's a good looking car, but it doesn't drive my "soul" like the way an SLC does. Other peoples' results may vary. Anyways, I think the Apex may be a financial punch to the groin for RCR. I don't see a hundreds of people waiting for this car (as the car sits now).

Just my $.02.

 

[Dr. David]

Hi Fran, and others:
I am not a potential customer of the Apex, but I am of several of your other products, (LMP-1 on order). I feel that somehow you need to convey to the customers that a business is a business. Any smart businessman is not in business to loose his business. In other words, if people want you to be here ten years or more from now, providing exceptional products as well as your exceptional support at a reasonable price, they need to understand that they should pay for the unique quality that you offer. Otherwise it doesn't work for you, and in the long run doesn't work for them either.

Why would someone think they could build a car comparable to the $100,000 Rossion Q1 for only a fraction of that price? Similarly, why would someone think that they could buy a car more than comparable to the Ariel Atom for the price of a Razor? (Think about it people, it just doesn't pencil out! If you don't agree with the reality of this, just don't buy the car)

As I understand it, this car was targeted as a potential "daily driver." It therefore is in a different niche than that of an SLC. That doesn't mean that high quality should be produced at a much lower price. I have a feeling that to do otherwise would be a support nightmare.

Please Fran, do not compromise on your trademark quality. Raise the price for those who want and appreciate the car, or focus on yet another great product.

I am not an expert, just my opinion,
David

 

[Jason Lewey]

I just want something that looks and handles amazing that is powered by a 4g63. I would like to know if I were to pick up a good condition 2g DSM for cheap, does it matter which chassis (awd vs fwd) I purchase to eventually turn into this kit. Registering an Eclipse is a lot easier to do in Nevada than a full custom kit chassis. I'm just tired of my 1g DSM being associated with the cheap asses of the new school DSM world. Something more fresh and modern would be perfect, especially as a daily driver.

 

[John Ross]

OK guys ...

There are multiple schools of thought currently floating around the thinktank at the shop....

SNIP

Let me have some input from real potential customers with an intelligent perspective...the door is not yet closed ...

I look forward to reading your input..

Obviously, everyone wants to have a five-cent quarter, and when you think about it, isn't that what RCR/Superlite has always been about?

The SLC costs $80K-$100K, and you end up with a car of comparable performance to the McLaren F1 that costs ten times as much. The catch? You have to put some of it together yourself.

The LMP-1 costs $70K-$80K, and you end up with a car that compares to race cars that cost nearly ten times as much. The catch? You have to put some of it together yourself.

I think the original concept of the Apex was to offer a lightweight, good-looking, mid-engined GT with wide rubber, a sexy body, killer brakes, and OEM doors/windows/interior. Power could be as much as the builder wanted, to where you could be knocking on Ferrari 458 performance at a tenth the price. The catch? You have to put some of it together yourself.

Isn't this still a viable business model for the Apex that has great appeal? You have the 4G63T drivetrain for the buyers that grew up with turbo fours, and the LS4 for V8 guys like me.

Fran, I suspect you're getting a lot of "But I'd like it this way!" from people who are daydreaming and wouldn't be able to buy the kit if it were half the original price. Hell, even with the SLC there's always someone asking about AWD or installing a Ford flathead or a bilge pump motor or somesuch...

Has something happened that causes you to now believe your original vision of the car and its target market was wrong?

JR

 

[Glenn Martin]

From my experience at car shows, there appears to be a substantial market for a quality car that can be completed in the $30K - $40 K price bracket. Most of the younger people cannot afford a car in the price range of a SLC no matter how much they like it. This is the largest group of buyers. I see this car as an entry level vehicle and the buyers of this car will eventually move up to the SLC level. It has to be a good quality car as the reputation of the company and it's products translates across it's entire product line. There are already enough substandard car kits in the market.

 

[doug blowers]

Fran,
I think you have the right idea in creating an “entry level kit car”. I am in the market for a two seated, mid-engine, four cylinder, and daily driving super car. I have been following the Apex and FFR 818 for over a year planning to buy one in the next two years to build with my son. I can afford to buy a kit car for 25K and put another 15K into it. I can’t afford or convince my wife to spend 40K plus another 25K to build a GT40 or SLC.
I love the concept of using the OEM cabin to have the comfort of a daily driver but I would not be turned off if it was a complete chassis like the 818. I have lost interest in the 818 because of the body style and lack of a coupe version and have focused my attention on the Apex. I would be lost if you scraped the Apex because the only other “entry level kit car” for me to purchase would be the 818.
I my opinion don’t let people or opinions from the web side track you from your project or the original goals of the project. Everyone has an opinion on the web and most of them will never buy an Apex or any other kit car. Also some people are trying to get all of their idea in as stock parts of the kit so they don’t have to any customization during the build. That the point of building a kit car, is to customize it and make it your own. Make it affordable, make it as easy as possible for first time builders, and just make it.
Future buy of the Apex.

 

[Leon R]

I would like to know if I were to pick up a good condition 2g DSM for cheap, does it matter which chassis (awd vs fwd).

Speaking strictly from the 2G Eclipse body perspective, there is no difference between FWD and AWD (beyond some driveshaft mounting bosses/studs). Engine harness will be radically different on non-turbos (since they use ChryCo engine), so expect to source it elsewhere (typical cost for used engine harness is around $100).

I hear some comments about picking such an old car, well, there is advantage to it! I do not know how much people are aware of this, but OBD2 emission inspections started flagging non-native and/or modified ECUs, it is becoming a serious problem for newer cars! One of the advantages of using 2G Eclipse is that 95 model year has an excellent OBD2 ECU, but it is pre-1996, so it is exempt from OBD2 testing! That should make annual inspections much easier in many states!

As for people who just can’t stand a 4 banger and “must have a V8”, some will never change their mind, but some will become 4G63 converts once they see what this tiny engine is capable of!

Price wise, it will not compete with the $10k 818 (natural comparison) and once you are at $20k, going to $30k is not huge leap, especially if you justify it with increased quality.

 

[Mesa]

There was a Union 76 commercial I remember from my childhood where the young guy is sitting in his 57 Chevy marveling at the new "footie" gas pedal he just bought .... while stuggling to come up with 25 cents to put some gas his car.

IMO this guy is the target audience, a die hard young car guy on a (relative) budget. Give him a hot looking ride, good suspension to build off of, big wheels now so he does not have to change the bodywork later, with engine, trans and interior he can mod up to higher spec as he finds the next 25 cents to do so.