Worth seeing.
- Thread starter Al Wohlstrom
- Start date
Terry Oxandale
Skinny Man
I too felt this was excellent, right up to the 9 minute mark, and then (as I heard it) an insertion of a political stand resembling a popular stand expressed today. None the less, it was overall a nice piece.
It was what happened, there's a balance and it was upset in Rome, and it's happening in Greece mobs and all.
It explained so much. I wish that I learned this in school. I'll have my kids watch this tomorrow and write a report on it.
Thanks
Thanks
It's amazing asking people (high school and college grads) which our country is, a democracy or republic, most answer democracy.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Holy crap what a bunch of fucking malarkey that thing is. Wait a second. "NO government" is "right wing" and 100% government control is "left wing?" "Kings, popes and monarchs" are left wing? What a bunch of loaded, historically incorrect nonsense.
This is more of the right wing based revisionist history nonsense we see from Glenn Beck et. al. that comes from their almost crazed desire to disassociate the words "right wing" and "Nazi."
Let's start over. It amazes me that people who are educated and apparently have good jobs can be this easily duped by a video.
In fact, traditional political science "thought" is that the political spectrum is more of a circle. Think of the bottom of the circle as the moderate wing of both the political left and the right in the US. THese individuals generally believe the free market, some government regulation of it, individual liberty, and democracy/republicanism (the difference between the two is vastly overstated in this video).
As you move left up the circle, you gradually do get more governmental control over the economy and society. First step up is socialism, and then to other forms of government that involve actual government ownership of the means of production, etc., culminating at say 90 degrees 'west" of the center of circle and totalitarian "leftist" regimes like Communist China and the old USSR.
As you move right up the circle, you see the same happen. Increasingly, government plays a much larger controlling role in society, owns the means of production etc. until you arrive at totalitarian "right wing" regimes like dictatorships, monarchies, Nazism, etc.
This is 90 degrees east of the center of the circle.
What happens as you continue to move north? Interesting thing. Both the left and the right SHED governmental control. On the left, you move to traditional "left wing" forms of craziness like anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism -- collective anti-government. On the right, you get the crazed forms of libertarianism that don't believe in any government, police, etc., finally meeting at the top of the circle in the land of chaotic non-government.
Educate yourselves people. More so than ever, there are a lot of purveyors of nonsense and anti-history that are doing so for a single reason -- to influence the weak minded to a particular political result. Don't buy it. You need a solid background in history, politics and economics to understand what is going on with tripe like this video.
Get it. And then vote. Not the other way around.
This is more of the right wing based revisionist history nonsense we see from Glenn Beck et. al. that comes from their almost crazed desire to disassociate the words "right wing" and "Nazi."
Let's start over. It amazes me that people who are educated and apparently have good jobs can be this easily duped by a video.
In fact, traditional political science "thought" is that the political spectrum is more of a circle. Think of the bottom of the circle as the moderate wing of both the political left and the right in the US. THese individuals generally believe the free market, some government regulation of it, individual liberty, and democracy/republicanism (the difference between the two is vastly overstated in this video).
As you move left up the circle, you gradually do get more governmental control over the economy and society. First step up is socialism, and then to other forms of government that involve actual government ownership of the means of production, etc., culminating at say 90 degrees 'west" of the center of circle and totalitarian "leftist" regimes like Communist China and the old USSR.
As you move right up the circle, you see the same happen. Increasingly, government plays a much larger controlling role in society, owns the means of production etc. until you arrive at totalitarian "right wing" regimes like dictatorships, monarchies, Nazism, etc.
This is 90 degrees east of the center of the circle.
What happens as you continue to move north? Interesting thing. Both the left and the right SHED governmental control. On the left, you move to traditional "left wing" forms of craziness like anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism -- collective anti-government. On the right, you get the crazed forms of libertarianism that don't believe in any government, police, etc., finally meeting at the top of the circle in the land of chaotic non-government.
Educate yourselves people. More so than ever, there are a lot of purveyors of nonsense and anti-history that are doing so for a single reason -- to influence the weak minded to a particular political result. Don't buy it. You need a solid background in history, politics and economics to understand what is going on with tripe like this video.
Get it. And then vote. Not the other way around.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Please don't. Please let someone who understands history and political science teach your children. Please don't feed them this crap.
In fact, aren't you the guy that thought selling US Treasury securities to China meant they were secured by our coutnry's natural resources? How about you do some reading about how the bond markets work, what the Chinese are buying and the nature of our debt to them, and then do a report on that.
In fact, aren't you the guy that thought selling US Treasury securities to China meant they were secured by our coutnry's natural resources? How about you do some reading about how the bond markets work, what the Chinese are buying and the nature of our debt to them, and then do a report on that.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Here is some basic History 101 (like 5th grade level) so that we can start to clear the air on the "political spectrum" and the nonsense in that video:
Nazism was founded out of elements of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany. The ideology was developed by Anton Drexler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism. Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930s to gain the support from industrial owners for the Nazis, focus was shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes. Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies, though a majority of scholars identify it as a far right form of politics.
The Nazis promoted a right-wing socialist economy. The economic system rejected egalitarianism and instead supported a stratified economy with classes based on merit and talent, retaining private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of national solidarity that would transcend class distinction. This socialism promoted the creation of a community of common interest between managers and employees in industry where a factory leader would be selected to act in coordination with a council of factory members, though these members would have to obey the Führerprinzip of the factory leader. The economy was to be subordinate to the goals of the political leadership of the state.
Nazism was founded out of elements of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany. The ideology was developed by Anton Drexler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism. Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930s to gain the support from industrial owners for the Nazis, focus was shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes. Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies, though a majority of scholars identify it as a far right form of politics.
The Nazis promoted a right-wing socialist economy. The economic system rejected egalitarianism and instead supported a stratified economy with classes based on merit and talent, retaining private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of national solidarity that would transcend class distinction. This socialism promoted the creation of a community of common interest between managers and employees in industry where a factory leader would be selected to act in coordination with a council of factory members, though these members would have to obey the Führerprinzip of the factory leader. The economy was to be subordinate to the goals of the political leadership of the state.
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Jeff
I find your tone and words most irritating, blasphemous and unprofessional.
Would you as a lawyer use such words in a court?
If not why do you think it acceptable to use them here?
Ian
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
They are acceptable -- actually necessary - because this kind of Orwellian anti-history needs to be called out and exposed for exactly what it is. Fucking malarkey.
On edit. wow there are some other doozies in there. Democracies always lead to oligarchies? Always? Um, no. More revisionist history. This thing seems to suggest that democracies never have rules/laws that restrain the majority. Wrong.
The only difference between a democracy and republic in the world of actual political science is that in a true democracy, people vote directly to make governing decisions. In a republic, they elect people to represent them in a smaller body to make governing decisions.
This malarkey about democracies never been restrained is precisely that.
Who generates this stuff? I'd be very interested to find out.
On edit. wow there are some other doozies in there. Democracies always lead to oligarchies? Always? Um, no. More revisionist history. This thing seems to suggest that democracies never have rules/laws that restrain the majority. Wrong.
The only difference between a democracy and republic in the world of actual political science is that in a true democracy, people vote directly to make governing decisions. In a republic, they elect people to represent them in a smaller body to make governing decisions.
This malarkey about democracies never been restrained is precisely that.
Who generates this stuff? I'd be very interested to find out.
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Terry Oxandale
Skinny Man
To some extent I agree, but the cause/effect is where I have a problem. Similar outcomes don"t necessarily mean the causes were the same.
Geez, he uses one word you don't agree with (by the way - within the bounds of the pathetic nonsense that can be found lately in the paddock), and you use it to divert away from the topic and shake your finger at him? Come on man, be reasonable...
The unspoken connection between the political left and complete government control vs the right and "freedom" could have been dealt with more professionally... yet another bullshit partisan stab...
In a sense, haven't we been an oligarchy for a long, long time already - as a result of both sides of the political spectrum and industry?
I have seen our form of government described as a democratically representative republic. Sure, the ideal may be a republic, but who makes the laws? They need to be decided upon democratically in some way shape or form, otherwise it's an oligarchy, so democracy never completely leaves the picture, only relevant in a subdued way. I think that's the missing piece of information the author kept out. He made it sound like democracy rears its ugly head and turns it into an oligarchy, when it was already there all along.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Unspoken? It was a direct and express statement. The "left" is complete government control, and the "right" is "freedom/no government control." The entire base premise for this piece of tripe is total and complete bullshit.
The demonizing of democracy was quite amusing. As you note, the creation of a "republic" was simply a means of addressing the impracticality of a "true" democracy. In ancient Greece, it may have been possible to get every citizen together to vote on various things. In a nation of even the 3-4 million people in the US at the time of the Constitutional Convention, it was not. In a modern society, there is no "choice" between democracy and a republic. A representative republic is the only practical means of governance. The "masses" elect representatives to a legislative and executive body.
The second stinking turd in this video is the idea (totally false) that a democracy has no means of protecting individuals from the majority, while a republic necessarily does. Total nonsense. In either form of government, the people can choose (as we did) to impose controls and limitations on government, whether that government is a democracy or a republic.
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Ian, unprofessional?
In Jeffs defence, you may not have noticed but Al and a couple of others, almost daly post articles, mostly..... "HERE IS MORE THAT IS BAD/WRONG ABOUT THE LEFT"
Most of these posts are either unture, missleading or outrigh lies. Almost daly we point out their transgressions and we are called among other things "a turd in the punch bowl, Communits, Natzis" and accused of having sex with Buffalos! Where was your indignation then?
In Jeffs defence, you may not have noticed but Al and a couple of others, almost daly post articles, mostly..... "HERE IS MORE THAT IS BAD/WRONG ABOUT THE LEFT"
Most of these posts are either unture, missleading or outrigh lies. Almost daly we point out their transgressions and we are called among other things "a turd in the punch bowl, Communits, Natzis" and accused of having sex with Buffalos! Where was your indignation then?
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
This one goes beyond that. It's almost like Holocaust denial in its twisting of politics and history.
What a sad state of affairs. Lefties cannot tolerate any disagreement with their agenda, or you become a loathsome miscreant.
This is what happens when a 10% lunatic fringe is told continually that they are in the majority.
I think you should all hire Jeff to sue your professors for lying to you all these years.
Its all so simple, the left is always seeking bigger government. The Nazis were a BIG GOVERNMENT. How do you argue that?
Conservatives have as their cornerstone small government. Just because the Left teaches the opposite in school doesn't make it true.
This is what happens when a 10% lunatic fringe is told continually that they are in the majority.
I think you should all hire Jeff to sue your professors for lying to you all these years.
Its all so simple, the left is always seeking bigger government. The Nazis were a BIG GOVERNMENT. How do you argue that?
Conservatives have as their cornerstone small government. Just because the Left teaches the opposite in school doesn't make it true.
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Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
I got it. So this Youtube video trumps years of scholarship, research, history and analysis. Check.
The left is always seeking bigger government? You sure about that? Larger military, larger police force, larger "Department of Homeland Security," larger Department of Commerce, and so on are all creatures of the "right."
In fact, why don't you give me an example of one of these idyllic "small/no" government countries. Somalia maybe? Chad? You moving there anytime soon?
What a sad state of affairs. The right is reduced to attempting to dupe a bunch of folks into believing in a bastardized and incorrect version of "history" in order to further a political agenda. Even sadder is that there a lot of semi-educated folks out there buying this without any real critical thought.
The left is always seeking bigger government? You sure about that? Larger military, larger police force, larger "Department of Homeland Security," larger Department of Commerce, and so on are all creatures of the "right."
In fact, why don't you give me an example of one of these idyllic "small/no" government countries. Somalia maybe? Chad? You moving there anytime soon?
What a sad state of affairs. The right is reduced to attempting to dupe a bunch of folks into believing in a bastardized and incorrect version of "history" in order to further a political agenda. Even sadder is that there a lot of semi-educated folks out there buying this without any real critical thought.
Republic
Is defined by a government where authority is derived through election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy (a government where the lower classes of a nation control public affairs without respect to law, precedents, or vested rights). Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment and progress in all areas of arts, science, thought and civil liberties. Republics are the preferred structured base for government throughout Europe and the Americas.
A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:
1) An Executive Officer (Article II of the US Constitution)
(2) A legislative body: (Article I of the US Constitution) with the power of appointment and through the power of legislation can raise revenue and appropriate expenditures in addition to drafting public policy.
(3) A judiciary (Article III of the US Constitution) to pass upon the justice and legality of their government acts and to recognize and enforce individual and sovereign rights.
(4) Expressed and enforced inherent individual rights, (The US Bill of Rights (Amendments 1-10; additional Amendments 11-27).
Remove one of the four checks and balances of a Republic and a country begins becoming an Autocracy.
Add another element with personal involvement and individual say and the country slides toward democracy.
The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight.
Theodore Roosevelt
A return to first principles in a republic is sometimes caused by the simple virtues of one man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example.
Niccolo Machiavelli
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
Grant me thirty years of equal division of inheritances and a free press, and I will provide you with a republic.
Alexis de Tocqueville
In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power.
Marcus Tullius Cicero
Syntax, my lad. It has been restored to the highest place in the republic.
John Steinbeck
Society is a republic. When an individual tries to lift themselves above others, they are dragged down by the mass, either by ridicule or slander.
Victor Hugo
The safety of the republic being the supreme law, and Texas having offered us the key to the safety of our country from all foreign intrigues and diplomacy, I say accept the key... and bolt the door at once.
Andrew Jackson
Our government is founded upon the intelligence of the people. I for one do not despair of the republic. I have great confidence in the virtue of the great majority of the people, and I cannot fear the result.
Andrew Jackson
Is defined by a government where authority is derived through election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy (a government where the lower classes of a nation control public affairs without respect to law, precedents, or vested rights). Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment and progress in all areas of arts, science, thought and civil liberties. Republics are the preferred structured base for government throughout Europe and the Americas.
A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:
1) An Executive Officer (Article II of the US Constitution)
(2) A legislative body: (Article I of the US Constitution) with the power of appointment and through the power of legislation can raise revenue and appropriate expenditures in addition to drafting public policy.
(3) A judiciary (Article III of the US Constitution) to pass upon the justice and legality of their government acts and to recognize and enforce individual and sovereign rights.
(4) Expressed and enforced inherent individual rights, (The US Bill of Rights (Amendments 1-10; additional Amendments 11-27).
Remove one of the four checks and balances of a Republic and a country begins becoming an Autocracy.
Add another element with personal involvement and individual say and the country slides toward democracy.
The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight.
Theodore Roosevelt
A return to first principles in a republic is sometimes caused by the simple virtues of one man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example.
Niccolo Machiavelli
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
Grant me thirty years of equal division of inheritances and a free press, and I will provide you with a republic.
Alexis de Tocqueville
In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power.
Marcus Tullius Cicero
Syntax, my lad. It has been restored to the highest place in the republic.
John Steinbeck
Society is a republic. When an individual tries to lift themselves above others, they are dragged down by the mass, either by ridicule or slander.
Victor Hugo
The safety of the republic being the supreme law, and Texas having offered us the key to the safety of our country from all foreign intrigues and diplomacy, I say accept the key... and bolt the door at once.
Andrew Jackson
Our government is founded upon the intelligence of the people. I for one do not despair of the republic. I have great confidence in the virtue of the great majority of the people, and I cannot fear the result.
Andrew Jackson
