flatchat(Chris)
Supporter
I'm with Jac as well --the evidence :- www.gt40s.com/forum/lola-t70-lounge/18681-build-diary-rcr-lola-t70-spider-2.html :embarassed: post #78
2011 VIR 13 Hour - RCR T70 Replica
- Thread starter Ron Earp
- Start date
Ron Earp
Admin
Fellows, in this case the rotation direction of our pump didn't cause the problem. The pump on the motor is this one:
is a Ford FMS-M-8501-E351S
Ford Racing M-8501-E351S - Ford Racing Shorty-Style Mechanical Water Pumps - Overview - SummitRacing.com
It is a shorty style standard rotation pump designed for a V belt. And it is being using in a standard rotation configuration. Same pump here where one member thought the pump was causing the problem but it turned out it was probably pulley alignment (his conclusion):
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...ne-cooling/32891-water-pump-issues-again.html
My pump had a stamped steel impeller and the impeller separated into two parts, one that remained pressed on the shaft and the disc with blades as shown in the picture. It doesn't appear to be a corrosion failure. Bearings are good and tight in the housing. None of the vanes are broken and the pump is not a reverse rotation pump being turned the wrong way as suggested.
PS:
That isn't the motor in the car now. That is the old AFR headed motor that was sold to Mark Reid. It had high compression, used to wear webers and got converted to 4 bbl. Also had an Audi box hanging off the back. It was wearing the same pump, the shorty standard rotation driver's outlet pump. On post #87 you'll see some info where I was discussing getting some off the shelf pulleys for it.
is a Ford FMS-M-8501-E351S
Ford Racing M-8501-E351S - Ford Racing Shorty-Style Mechanical Water Pumps - Overview - SummitRacing.com
It is a shorty style standard rotation pump designed for a V belt. And it is being using in a standard rotation configuration. Same pump here where one member thought the pump was causing the problem but it turned out it was probably pulley alignment (his conclusion):
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...ne-cooling/32891-water-pump-issues-again.html
My pump had a stamped steel impeller and the impeller separated into two parts, one that remained pressed on the shaft and the disc with blades as shown in the picture. It doesn't appear to be a corrosion failure. Bearings are good and tight in the housing. None of the vanes are broken and the pump is not a reverse rotation pump being turned the wrong way as suggested.
PS:
That isn't the motor in the car now. That is the old AFR headed motor that was sold to Mark Reid. It had high compression, used to wear webers and got converted to 4 bbl. Also had an Audi box hanging off the back. It was wearing the same pump, the shorty standard rotation driver's outlet pump. On post #87 you'll see some info where I was discussing getting some off the shelf pulleys for it.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Hard to believe cavitation would have caused the shearing I saw on that pump (in my opinion). Sucker was ripped off the shaft.
Cavitation on a pressed steel impeller with 'straight vanes' like that causes imbalace & localised pressure gradients on or around the impeller, this leads to flexing of the steel & eventual failure at the point closest to the hub. impeller design is pretty hard to get right & especially in this case where it has to live over a wide RPM band... the older cast iron impellers with curved vanes as fitted to early 260/289/ Boss 302 etc were probably overbuilt by comparision. While this pump might be sold by Ford Racing it is a long way from being a race quality item... I think its Stewart pumps in the USA that make the good stuff....you might also need to change the front cover to the early 289/302 item to work with them..
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Well, you know far better than me. You really think (and I do defer to your knowledge, you do know this stuff better than me) that could break the impeller off the shaft?
I agree with you after looking at it is is typical fairly cheap Summit Racing quality stuff. Still surprised it failed though.
I agree with you after looking at it is is typical fairly cheap Summit Racing quality stuff. Still surprised it failed though.
We use a Stewart cartridge style pump on the SL-C 01 car...same as used on LS series engines in DP and many other longer race programmes.
I know that GM also uses stock LS pumps on some of their shorter race engines too....Camaro and Cadillac.
I know that GM also uses stock LS pumps on some of their shorter race engines too....Camaro and Cadillac.
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Ron, read with interest (and sadly disappointment) of your recent Ford Racing WP failure. You linked into my previous posts and I can tell you now the Stewart Components WP has been a very solid and reliable addition to my motor. While I'm still not clear as to what caused my FR WP failures (was it alignment and tension as I noted?) I feel pretty confident in saying I would not recommend them be used in other similiar applicatons. Its a confidence thing. This forum is littered with people posting about their Ford Racing WP failures. Play it safe and spend the extra $ and get a Stewart pump. I feel sure you won't be sorry. Continued success too in your racing ventures.
flatchat(Chris)
Supporter
Can vouch for the Stewart pump -solved a load of problems for the Ford
The impeller has already been weakened by virtue of its design & shape at the point of failure by being rolled & crimped or welded onto the hub which is then pressed onto the shaft... to get a better idea on a larger scale the steel road wheels on many of todays cars are not 'flat' in that area just outside of the bolt circle, but have ridges etc pressed into them to resist deflection from cornering forces etc... that impeller has no such ridges or shapes to resist flexing at that point mainly due to its size etc
flatchat(Chris)
Supporter
P.O.S
A friend has a 408 stroker Windsor in his Pantera, which uses the same Ford Racing POS shorty water pump. He has had at least three or four pump failures; in each case the impeller sheared off the shaft. Ford's response can be summed up as 'bored disinterest' when he speaks to them of the problems he's having. He's obviously doing something wrong, they say.
Nay nay. Those Ford Racing pumps are simply junk--several people here have been left stranded by them too. Fortunately there are other mechanical alternatives that don't require delving into the esoteric (things like electric water pumps, etc.)
Nay nay. Those Ford Racing pumps are simply junk--several people here have been left stranded by them too. Fortunately there are other mechanical alternatives that don't require delving into the esoteric (things like electric water pumps, etc.)
Ron Earp
Admin
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
If you are a motorsports guy, a doer, you should experience the 13 hour once, as crew or driver. It's a hell of a thing. A bunch of amateurs running race cars for 13 hours, basically a marathon, with the entire show being run by volunteers.
I imagine it is what Sebring and Lemans were like in the 50s when privateers had a real shot and the factories weren't heavily involved.
If you want some info about crewing or running, send me or Ron a PM. We can point you to teams that rent driver's seats, or take crew, or maybe you'd even want to help us...lol.....
I imagine it is what Sebring and Lemans were like in the 50s when privateers had a real shot and the factories weren't heavily involved.
If you want some info about crewing or running, send me or Ron a PM. We can point you to teams that rent driver's seats, or take crew, or maybe you'd even want to help us...lol.....
Ron Earp
Admin
Very good analogy. And I bet the Thunderhill race is similar. There just aren't many chances for amateurs to race endurance races on world-class tracks.
We'll be back again next year, either in the Lola or something else. And I hear the SLC is coming back for the win.
The 13 hour is a great race and something to be experienced for those with any interest in motorsports. The team and family atmosphere is unique and the field never fails to impress.
The heat has definitely been turned up though for ITE, a class that Jeff and I have had a lot of influence over creating and shaping for the NCR SCCA. I hope that more teams will take advantage of the "liberal" ITE rules and come out and race.
Totally agree that you all need to do the VIR 13 hours. Done it 4 times now and it is just fabulous. Maybe that was because of the team that hosted us..... Have also done three 24 hour races here in the UK with Britcar. Whilst there are differences, the communal point is that endurance racing is just the best. Planning to get back to VIR again for definite.
Ron Earp
Admin
Good news on the radiator in that it was repairable and the two leaks were accessible at the bottom of each side tank. So I'll be able to install that and see if the head gaskets held up okay.
Bring it back on over Malcolm. Be good to have you and the fellows back over. Miata?
Ron Earp
Admin
