CAV In provisional Liquidation

Hi JohnJ

thank you for your post, I am pleased that you and others forum members are now aware of this situation, I can confirm that the CAV GT40 is an excellent choice of car and that Rick Chattell (UK CAV dealer) is indeed to be trusted as a gentleman and will look after his customer's best interest at all time.
I sincerely hope that CAV (Mr James Fisher) will now be in a position to officially inform our forum members of the full position and when production may resume.
I don't believe that I was "out of line" informing our members of the facts. I have been a member of the GT40 Enthusiast club since it inception in the early 80's and have scene several companies that make GT40's come and go and I have scene fellow enthusiasts get hurt as a result.
I understand that this is not good news for dealers holding stocks of cars but its not the cars in stock that are effected only future orders for cars still to be built.
I have no axe to grind or allegiances to other manufacturers just a duty to fellow forum members (after all £30,000 is a substantial investment).
I hold no animosity to any CAV dealers as I believe them to all be ethical business people and as to why my integrity is being called into question for stating fact is surprising

Regards
Chris.

 

[Peter Delaney]

Well said Hershal - "Huh??" is right. What is with these CAV guys - Chris starts with a FACT (on the public record) & they go for the smoke & mirrors !

How much simpler if they had just issued a minimal statement (as far as the legal system allows - just like Robert Logan did) right up front.

Simple honesty earns huge levels of respect, particularly when the situation has some potentially negative aspects for the person being honest. Marketing hype dressed up as "information" does nothing. Nasty little comments about competitors has a seriously big negative effect on the perpetrator (and often a positive effect for the "victim" of such nastiness).

If there is a real re-organisation at CAV & they are bound to absolute secrecy by the lawyers, why not resort to the same trick that politicians have used for centuries - leaks from "usually reliable sources" ?

I have no personal axe to grind here - as a DRB owner, I am not affected by CAV or RF developments at all. I just like to see open discussion & honesty within our extended GT40 family - call me simple-minded, altruistic, etc, but don't call me a lawyer ! (Apologies to any Forum members who are qualified to practice law - your membership of the Forum automatically excludes you from the generally derisive title of "lawyer") !

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

All

Like Peter, I have no axe to grind with anyone here. However, with 25 years+ in the finance industry, and 10 years in PR/marketing during that time, I have seen many insolvencies, liquidations and bankruptcies along the way. The CAV situation is an interesting one. Yes, lawyers and bean counters will be making life difficult, but leaks and positive PR can be used to very useful advantage.

IMHO, Chris just stated the facts, and has attracted flames for doing so. However, looking back, probably the most interesting and contradictory of all posts/releases in recent months appear to have come from the businesses closest to CAV.

From Thruxton on 3 January:

[ QUOTE ]
From this date all cars marketed as the CAVGT will be supplied by CARCRAFT SA, a company run by John Spencer and Jean Fourie in Capetown ... We cannot make any comment on the worldwide situation, but understand that Carcraft are likely to supply this car globally.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was followed by a retraction/clarification from Carcraft.

9 January, from Totalkitcar, seemingly from a Thruxton release:

[ QUOTE ]
South African manufacturer CAV ... makers of GT40 replicas have sadly ceased trading, although UK agents Thruxton Sportscars are unaffected by the move because the rights to the car have been picked up by fellow South African company Car Craft and the car remains in production although is now called the CAV Carcraft G4 TR.
www.thruxtonsportscars.co.uk


[/ QUOTE ]

From (apparently) Carcraft on 15 Jan:

[ QUOTE ]
With the whole CAV "collapse" ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Followed by a complete retraction from Carcraft the following day.

From Shelby on 27 January:

[ QUOTE ]
The team of engineers, management and production staff that formerly (sp) produced the GT40 for CAV no longer work for CAV. We are not talking about six or seven employees but rather all of the 17 employees that were still working for CAV as of December 2003 have been employed by Shelby South Africa.

[/ QUOTE ]

We also know that the factory and equipment have been sold.

We then have the rose tinted specs view that CAV has been looking for bigger premises for 6 months, etc, etc, but nothing from South Africa.

Everyone wants to see CAV, its dealers and the companies connected with the CAV GT succeed. If CAV is bouncing back, and if it values the members of this forum as potential buyers then, IMHO, it should have solely issued releases centrally, from South Africa. For one dealer to contradict another, or even to contradict itself, it is more damaging than saying nothing at all.

For me, the biggest shame relates to the fact that CAV was tempted by the Shelby "carrot". If CAV had stuck with its reputation for building "these beautiful cars", I doubt if anything like this would have happened.

The GT40 industry IS big enough for everyone.

CAV is dead. Long live CAV ... in whatever new form it takes.

My 32 cents

Rob

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Concerning the Carcraft situation. They have been the sole supplier of the kit form of the CAV GT, which may have caused the confusion. The UK dealer is buying CAV GT's in the kit form from Carcraft only, and is not buying rollers directly from CAV because of the market in the UK.

I can tell you that I have provided all of the information that I have concerning the Shelby/CAV split. I would love to provide you with more information, but I can not. Concerning production figures, I do not know how many cars are produced on any given month and therefore could not tell you how many were produced since November. All that I do know is that several cars were being delivered in LA yesterday. I do not know when these cars were produced. The CAV GT line will continue producing cars and our customers, as always, will get what they have ordered.

Chris posting facts is encouraged, but making blanket statements such as "CAV production is at an end" are not facts they are suppositions that he has, and in my opinion defamatory.

I feel as a representative of a manufacturer that it is not my position to ever discuss the problems associated with another manufacturer. If you search you will find that, for example, I made no comment in the threads concerning RF and Gordon. It is not my place to question the details of their separation. RF made a statement that they have gone their separate ways (as many times happens in business) and I did not ask any specifics. I do not need to know the blow by blow details of their divorce.
For example:
How many cars were sold by Gordon?
How many have been sold by Hersh?
Why did the two companies dissolve their relationship?
Where is the Roaring Forties Moncoque that was supposed to be out many many months ago?
The community needs to know all of the facts!
I felt I don’t care what the specifics were, and if I did care I (as a representative of CAV) would not ask because I specifically do not want to appear to put down another company.

On January 7th. Bob Lacey made a statement in this thread:
California Advanced Vehicles Thread
Which is similar to the RF statement that RF and Gordon had gone their separate ways. It is obvious that CAV and Shelby have gone their separate ways and Bob has stated that CAV production will continue and concentrate only on the GT40.

I have answered the questions to the best of my ability. Again, I now ask Robert when he said "the agents in the four corners of the world that are affected by not geting product or customers who are unable to get product" to cite specific cases were dealers or customers have not received what they ordered. There are none to my knowledge. Obviously he felt the need to make a defamatory statement like this (which I have never done concerning his company or product) without stating specific facts as to whom was effected.

Robert as you state "Honesty and transparancy".

 

[Mike Inglis]

In summary:

CAV has gone bust.

 

Who knows all of this speculation could of been avoided if CAV could have been a little more open. They are public company operating in the public eyes. You can only expect folks to think the worst when no information is given. I am sympathic to the dealers such as Gary. I have met Gary, he is a nice enough fellow. If CAV is not being honest with him their not doing him right. If they are sharing information him and telling him not to share with the customers of CAV that is not proper in my opion. I wonder what was going on with CAV when they had no presents at Run and Gun this year. We also can not criticize folks for posting what they believe to be fact. Nor does it help anyone to be critical of others products. I am looking forward to seeing the cars that are being manufacturing now and the cars that appearently will be produce in the very near future out on the highways and at the track events. Hope CAV is there

 

HI GUYS, AS SOME OF YOU KNOW I HAVE A CAV WHICH I CALL IT MY " BLUE BEAUTY ". AFTER READING ALL OF THIS WHICH HAS KEPT MOST OF YOU UP ALL NIGHT I GOT UP EARLY AND STARTED IT UP IN 20 DEGREE WEATHER AND TOOK IT FOR A SPIN. GREAT FUN.
WHY DON'T WE ALL DO WHAT I DID AND LET THIS STUFF REST FOR A WHILE AND LET THE LAWYERS AND PEOLPE WHO ARE INVOLVED WITH THE FACTORY RUN ITS COARSE AND WHEN IT IS ALL OVER AND DONE WE CAN LOOK BACK AT EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SAID AND MAYBE WE MAY WISH THAT THINGS WERE SAID THAT WE MAY REGRET. JOE /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

I think Joseph has a great idea. Lets let the cards fall as they will.

 

As someone with no dog in this race - I am a future customer and have no relationship with any party at this time - I find this thread disturbing. Here's how I see this whole thread:

A guy posts the facts he has - based on public information and copy from CAV's own dealers/distributors - and also includes a 'rumor' and clearly states it as such. My thoughts are simply "wow, wonder what is going on with that company".

Immediately he is attacked by representatives of that company. My thoughts are now "WOW, why are these folks taking offense to the statements he made."

Another manufacturer rises to his defense and states he is a stand-up guy and doesn't think the guy was trying to impune the companys reputation. He then makes a logical statement EVERY customer in the world would want to know and I paraphrase: "I don't give a damn about the legal issues, is this going to impact the customers and dealers."

Result: He is then attacked. Innuendo and slurs not-so-subtlety conceived are used in an attempt to cast doubt on his company. I think "Wow, why are they so sensitive to any post which references their own information, why are they being hypocritical in their own responses, and most importantly, what are these guys trying to hide?"

Amazingly enough, I didn't have any of these questions or doubts or think any ill about CAV based on Chris' note or their restructuring... but after reading these posts and the attacks on people who had done nothing to illicit a negative response, I do now.

The best approach here would have been to acknowledge the restructuring, advise people many rumors would exist, not to believe everything they 'heard', assure the public (at least this forum) customers and dealers would not be affected, advise more information would be release as permissible and prudent, and bow out.

Attempting to deride or cast doubt on another is generally the resort of those in untenable positions and/or without fact on their side - or those facts aren't particulary palatable.

Wish CAV well and hope they learn to manage their public relations much better.

 

[Ian Clark]

Thanks to many of you for your support and perspectives on this matter:

Rob Beddington - for highlighting the Shelby factor
Frknfast, Joseph and Steve Toner as customers who care
Robert Elliot for reminding us not to belive everything we hear

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks again, take care and have a great day!

 

[Brett James-McCall]

One of my friends at work knows John at Carcraft from a family connection point of view, no work related matter at all. I will ask him if he can get any information from John on what is happening.

Brett

 

[Tom_Hughes]

Hi Guy's...

You may remember one on my earlier posts. I'm in the process of buying a CAV new as we speak. The one point that no one has mentioned is dealing with SAI. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure no one is more fond of Carroll than me. I've met him on several occassions and think he is quite an American Icon. However, there are many he's done business with that have been litigated against. Ford, Brian Angliss, everyone who's ever made Cobra kit cars, etc. He feels he has a powerful trademark, and he protects it well at all costs. I am confident there is more to this than is public. Nor should it be. Everyone wants to work with Carroll, however, not everyone has the stroke ($$$) or tenacity to make it happen. If there is legal council amongst us, I would urge them to go to Lexis/Nexis and look up Shelby vs., and see what all comes up. Bet there is more than one! Could it be that CAV was asked to sink an inordinate amount of $$$ into a project under funded by SAI? Hmmm..... I wish both parties the best! Both make excellent products!

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Sounds like what I have unoffically heard.

 

Sounds like CAV is filing to dodge a lawsuit, from Gary's reply. Wouldn't Shelby file to revoke the Chap 11 on the grounds that it is simply a ploy to hide from a suit?

 

[Tom_Hughes]

I give up... I had hoped for level heads on the forum.. International law is extremely difficult. Hell, even the legal system in the US is screwey. Look at Louisiana. It STILL practices French Colonial law. Lawsuits overseas are difficult (and very costly) at best! They are not worth it, unless HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS are at stake. I believe SA uses a form of English law, but cannot remember. In any event, I don't believe Shelby would file any suit....especially if he got what he wanted... SA manufacturing facilities at a bargain price... e.g, a deal for SAI paid for by the hard work of others, who may not have been (to be poilte) as shrewed as he was in the negotiations. Then add in the increase in the SA Rand against the dollar. Extra, unnecessary pressure. End of my posts, I'm just dissapointed that everyone feels the need to 'dog-pile' on this one. Even been kicked when you are down in a fight? It's kind of sad really... Think bigger picture fellows...

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Agreed.

 

[David Morton]

1. Chris Melias post was a fair and balanced statement and it is what this forum is all about.
2. If CAV is gone for ever, then current and imminent prospective owners have good cars which will probably be sought after.
3. I might be mistaken, but it would seem to me that shelby 'beats up' or seems to get involved in various litigious actions, but, as yet, we still don't have a clue what has happened at CAV and his involvement therein.
At least I don't.
4. Let the dust settle - something good may come out of all of this - eventually.

Dave M

 

[Ron Earp]

I’ve read this thread with some interest over the past few days but could devote the time to respond as I’ve been quite ill as of late. But, I’m slowly recovering so I thought I’d take a little time to write.

The CAV saga (speaking purely of the South African story) has been ongoing for quite some time, since at least last fall as best I can tell. The first rumblings of it I picked up on the Cobra forums with posts about SAI and the Cobras. At first most everyone viewed the posts telling of CAV’s demise and problems with SAI production with a speculative eye. However, as more and more information started to surface it became apparent that something was indeed happening with respect to the company’s liquidation and the posts were more than rumors.

About that time I started to post here questions about the situation to maybe figure out what was happening. At the time (and I still do) I was getting a fair number of PM and emails from relatively new people about CAV and what was going on. I responded to these emails that I really didn’t know and to contact Bob Lacey or Gary Gibbs, the only two US CAV folks I have corresponded with enough to know that they are decent people.

Still, over time there was no public mention of problems with CAV from anyone associated with CAV SA. And there still isn’t. So Chris’ post about CAV is not, in my opinion, out of line. It brings forth an issue that needed to be discussed, that was underlying in many people’s minds, and is frankly too big of an issue to pretend doesn’t exist. I think it completely unfair that a certain percentage of the forum members knew of the story while the others were completely in the dark.

I do not hold the dealers responsible or accountable for their lack of knowledge or lack of wanting to discuss the issue. I know what type of position they are in – I run the American arm of a German based company here in the States and many times in this position I do not know the full story about company movements or new products, or, if I do know something I can’t discuss it at the time. This situation is even more difficult, CAV is in liquidation so they are most certainly bound by agreements not to speak about the issue. However, that being said I think they could have come up with some sort of statement that let people know the score without tromping on any legal agreements. It would have been nice and placed the dealers in a good position.

The real blame, or shame in the story, lies with CAV SA. If CAV SA wants to endear itself to the GT40/Cobra community, which they probably should as many of their customers will come from these areas, then they should announce their position, announce their intentions, and be honest and forthright with what has happened. Honesty is a really good policy that gives people that warm and fuzzy feeling with they have to deal with you or your organization. Use it to your advantage.

As I’ve mentioned before I DO NOT buy the argument that manufacturers don’t have time to read internet forums, they are busy building cars, and cannot be expected to respond to petty posts on obscure internet forums. My response to that is wake up – it is 2004 and the majority of savvy customers get their data from internet forums. Search for GT40 on the web and you’ll find this site and plenty others that lead you here. These communities that have sprung up around GT40s, Cobras, and other cars are very important and attendance to them should be considered mandatory marketing – just like running an ad in Car and Driver, KitCar, or any other magazine. Better yet, it is free.

So, with respect to this thread and CAV – I don’t think people on the forum have a particular beef with the dealers, I know I don’t. I’m glad the issue has come out in the open and has been addressed, as best that it could be addressed given the information and location from the source. CAV did make good cars, and I have it on good authority that CAV will be making cars again in the very near future.

Ron

PS-
T Huges – don’t give up. The forum is doing EXACTLY what it was meant to do – provide information. You might not like exactly how it comes out all the time but this is a helpful service in the end. And, CAV will be fine, your car will be fine, and you'll get what you wanted from them.

Canuk40 – “Cut CAV some slack here boys, then you might get some meaningfull information from the company. Otherwise I'm sure they will not want to comment or support this forum. “

CAV not support the forum? In what way? They don’t support the forum now, with the exception of their owners posting here. Are you going to tell them not to come to the forum in the future? We shouldn’t have to appease CAV SA to get information. We represent an entire host of potential customers that CAV pays nothing to market to, in fact, they even have their own forum section for free. Sorry if this sounds harsh, it isn't meant to be, just couldn't find any other way to say it.

 

[Ian Clark]

Hi Ron,

I have to agree with you, Tom Hughs and David Morton. Level heads, wait for something good to come out of it and CAV SA should have headed this issue off at the pass by being up front about the restructuring.

Was I not so passionate and committed to the GT40 replica industry I might have been able to bite my lip and stay quiet about posts that are obviously biased against CAV.

To the credit for the good work that Bob Lacey and Gary Gibbs have done with the fine automobile that CAV produces it's no surprise that customers remain loyal and are ordering cars even in this time of transition.

I would like to see, as much as anyone else, a clarifying statement from the factory, please be patient these things take time.

Thanks again for all the members who've written in to offer their unbiased opinions - which I'm sure CAV and all it's dealers take very seriously.

If anyone here is going to be in Toronto or Edmonton in February, CAV is participating in two Intenational Auto Shows, and I'd love to meet any GT40 enthusiast. As always, take care and have a great day.

 

AHHHHHHHHH, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

All these USED CAR SALESMEN /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and I mean ALL OF THEM (The entire alphabet soup,,,GTD, XYZ, MDD,,,CAC,,FUC,,,,). I love it when I see their true COLORES show up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Heard the song by the Ojays,,,Money, money, money /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifMONEY

IMHO, try not to buy cars from Manufacturers, buy from individuals.