Isn't this interesting: http://www.michaelsmotorsports.com/6speedconversion.htm
6-speed conversion for R30 transaxle, suggested max of 600HP.
Scott
6-speed conversion for R30 transaxle, suggested max of 600HP.
Scott
D Bell R21 upgrade
- Thread starter Howard Jones
- Start date
Update;
I just got off the phone with John Welch. He works with (gets parts) from Micheals Motorsports (MM). Some interesting tidbits of info.... The MM LSD is brought into the US in a Quaife box directly from the manufacturer for Quaife, GTO Engineering UK. These LSD's fit the UN1 correctly while the LSD sold by Quaife for the UN1 in the US appears to be more universal in that it requires special shimming and does not have a provision for a speedo gear while the MM LSD bolts right in. John has not seen the MM 6-speed so could not comment on its strength other than to say "if you are trying to beef-up this box for torque a sixth gear is probably NOT a good idea" Apparantly they are getting over 600hp out out of the turbo Esprit and by shortening 5th gear and adding a sixth slightly taller than the old fifth it ends up being and excellent gearing for the Esprit. I don't think it is really for us other than that kit may be incorporating the input shaft upgrade we want for our application. So perhaps we need to be talking to GTO Engineering instead.
As far as a US guy to do the work John would be happy to work with us and may have a few (less than 6) customers that may want the work done depending on costs.
Andy
I just got off the phone with John Welch. He works with (gets parts) from Micheals Motorsports (MM). Some interesting tidbits of info.... The MM LSD is brought into the US in a Quaife box directly from the manufacturer for Quaife, GTO Engineering UK. These LSD's fit the UN1 correctly while the LSD sold by Quaife for the UN1 in the US appears to be more universal in that it requires special shimming and does not have a provision for a speedo gear while the MM LSD bolts right in. John has not seen the MM 6-speed so could not comment on its strength other than to say "if you are trying to beef-up this box for torque a sixth gear is probably NOT a good idea" Apparantly they are getting over 600hp out out of the turbo Esprit and by shortening 5th gear and adding a sixth slightly taller than the old fifth it ends up being and excellent gearing for the Esprit. I don't think it is really for us other than that kit may be incorporating the input shaft upgrade we want for our application. So perhaps we need to be talking to GTO Engineering instead.
As far as a US guy to do the work John would be happy to work with us and may have a few (less than 6) customers that may want the work done depending on costs.
Andy
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Hi again Andy -
Re the Quaife ATB that requires 'shimming' - we have one of that type in Roys UN1 box. As I understand it, it is an early version ATB and was not specifically for the UN1 - hence requiring the shim and no speedo ring mounting facility. (We use magnets on coupling so speedo ring did not matter anyway)
Speaking to Kevin Jones, of GTO Engineering, the later ATB diffs were specifically for UN1 + other applications and hence do not require the shim (about 6mm as I recall - a spacer really). I have purchased the later ATBs from Kevin and it is he who is doing a 6-speed straight cut gearset for the UN1 also - although I have yet to view one... HE restores/maintains/supports mainly Ferrari's + other classics and has an ex-F1 transmission engineer 'on-side' so to speak as I understand it, hence the 6-speed. I also believe that all 6 gears are between front and rear bulkheads of box and that reverse is the overhung gear, not 5th, which is always a bit fragile. Still, this is what I have heard but as Julian over here is awaiting delivery of his 6-speed, I'll update once I know for sure... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
ps - I understand that Kevin of GTO has about 20 of these 6-gear sets in production which are probably nearing completion, if they have not already but I do not know how many have been pre-sold, so if you are interested, better get your name down fast!.
GTO are a good company to deal wilth in my opinion - and no, I have no connection with them, its just they have time to listen and discuss your requirements....whether you buy or not, very helpfull people.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Re the Quaife ATB that requires 'shimming' - we have one of that type in Roys UN1 box. As I understand it, it is an early version ATB and was not specifically for the UN1 - hence requiring the shim and no speedo ring mounting facility. (We use magnets on coupling so speedo ring did not matter anyway)
Speaking to Kevin Jones, of GTO Engineering, the later ATB diffs were specifically for UN1 + other applications and hence do not require the shim (about 6mm as I recall - a spacer really). I have purchased the later ATBs from Kevin and it is he who is doing a 6-speed straight cut gearset for the UN1 also - although I have yet to view one... HE restores/maintains/supports mainly Ferrari's + other classics and has an ex-F1 transmission engineer 'on-side' so to speak as I understand it, hence the 6-speed. I also believe that all 6 gears are between front and rear bulkheads of box and that reverse is the overhung gear, not 5th, which is always a bit fragile. Still, this is what I have heard but as Julian over here is awaiting delivery of his 6-speed, I'll update once I know for sure... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
ps - I understand that Kevin of GTO has about 20 of these 6-gear sets in production which are probably nearing completion, if they have not already but I do not know how many have been pre-sold, so if you are interested, better get your name down fast!.
GTO are a good company to deal wilth in my opinion - and no, I have no connection with them, its just they have time to listen and discuss your requirements....whether you buy or not, very helpfull people.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Paul & Ian
Thank you for the link and insights. Conceptually the 6 speed now sounds like the BEST solution. John's concern was with the overhung gears! Like the RBT 6 speed where they take a fragile 5th and split it into an even more fragile 5th AND 6th. I didn't catch that it was dog-ring the first time. this makes more sense on how it can all fit and be more strong. Very Exciting! Can Julian hint at what kind of costs are involved?
Thanks for your help.
Andy
Thank you for the link and insights. Conceptually the 6 speed now sounds like the BEST solution. John's concern was with the overhung gears! Like the RBT 6 speed where they take a fragile 5th and split it into an even more fragile 5th AND 6th. I didn't catch that it was dog-ring the first time. this makes more sense on how it can all fit and be more strong. Very Exciting! Can Julian hint at what kind of costs are involved?
Thanks for your help.
Andy
Howard Jones
Supporter
Andy, If John can tie together some Lotus people with us and we can come up with a few GT40 people then maybe we could use John here in the US to do the work . Also if he could come up with the parts thru a larger group buy then maybe that would be a better way to do this for us over here in the US.
If he is near you then maybe you could see if this is at all possible and then we could begin to put somthing more firm together.
If he is near you then maybe you could see if this is at all possible and then we could begin to put somthing more firm together.
Howard Jones
Supporter
It seams that the "main shaft" kits are a bit more than 3 grand in the UK and the complete R21 boxes with all upgrades including the Quafe LS are about 6+K.
Thank you GTO for your fast responce. I still would like to find a way to sorce this upgrade here in the US. So I'll keep working at it.
Thank you GTO for your fast responce. I still would like to find a way to sorce this upgrade here in the US. So I'll keep working at it.
Howard Jones
Supporter
I spoke to the Quaife USA tech rep yesterday. He had just returned from SEMA and had asked the Quaife top dogs about our desire to have these parts sold here in the US.
The bottom line is Quaife is only the contract shop for these parts. I speak only of the "D Bell" upgrade not the LSD unit. It can be bought directly from Quaife. As such they have no rights to sell them here or for that matter elsewhere.
So now what? Maybe we can work on a forum group buy. I was thinking about something like this. Maybe someone in the UK could inquire about a production run. Renault gearbox owners who want a kit would sign up during a "window" period with a current supplier of these parts in the UK. A deposit would be taken so that the less that serious wouldn't hender the rest of us. Further payments would be made direct to the supplier along with a fair "handling fee" on a indivdual basis.
Thereafter shipping would be direct to the buyer.
Let me think some more on this and see what can be done along these lines. If anybody can help with this then please send me a email or just chime in right here.
If we can move forward on getting the parts then I believe I can find somone who would do a quality job of installation here at a group rate along the above lines.
The bottom line is Quaife is only the contract shop for these parts. I speak only of the "D Bell" upgrade not the LSD unit. It can be bought directly from Quaife. As such they have no rights to sell them here or for that matter elsewhere.
So now what? Maybe we can work on a forum group buy. I was thinking about something like this. Maybe someone in the UK could inquire about a production run. Renault gearbox owners who want a kit would sign up during a "window" period with a current supplier of these parts in the UK. A deposit would be taken so that the less that serious wouldn't hender the rest of us. Further payments would be made direct to the supplier along with a fair "handling fee" on a indivdual basis.
Thereafter shipping would be direct to the buyer.
Let me think some more on this and see what can be done along these lines. If anybody can help with this then please send me a email or just chime in right here.
If we can move forward on getting the parts then I believe I can find somone who would do a quality job of installation here at a group rate along the above lines.
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Hi again Howard
Chis Cole of Mach 1 Transmissions is selling the Quaife uprated main shaft (1 piece) including the longer 1st and 2nd, as a kit of parts you can fit to your own R21T (UN1) for £1750 UK (No VAT). More details in the club magazine which I'm collecting from the printers tomorrow morning - then off to Kent to package and post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.... and relax!
Chis Cole of Mach 1 Transmissions is selling the Quaife uprated main shaft (1 piece) including the longer 1st and 2nd, as a kit of parts you can fit to your own R21T (UN1) for £1750 UK (No VAT). More details in the club magazine which I'm collecting from the printers tomorrow morning - then off to Kent to package and post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.... and relax!
Howard Jones
Supporter
Paul, That's what I'll end up doing I guess. It never hurts to try. At least the possibility of a larger production run and a group buy has been aired. We'll see what comes of it.
I had hoped that maybe someone over there might benifit along this line if a large group could be put together.
If things don't work out that way then so be it. In any case I really don't have any comerical interest in this and I'm not trying to exclude anyone, it's really the other way. I think someone in England could market this kit to the lotus, delorian, and other kit builders along with us GTD people and sell quite a few of them here in the US if the whole process was easier.
Maybe I'm just too used to easy access to hot rod parts hre in the US.
Anyway thanks to all the guys in the GTD clubs in the UK. You all have helped me and others here plenty.
I had hoped that maybe someone over there might benifit along this line if a large group could be put together.
If things don't work out that way then so be it. In any case I really don't have any comerical interest in this and I'm not trying to exclude anyone, it's really the other way. I think someone in England could market this kit to the lotus, delorian, and other kit builders along with us GTD people and sell quite a few of them here in the US if the whole process was easier.
Maybe I'm just too used to easy access to hot rod parts hre in the US.
Anyway thanks to all the guys in the GTD clubs in the UK. You all have helped me and others here plenty.
Guys,
I was reading this intersting post and thought it could be interesting to remember that SADEV a french cie located in West of France produces a complete new internal dog type (straight cut gears) for the UN1 box. It was assembled at the time on Ventury LM600 (yes 600 hp) so should be reliable for our cars, if you have the $$$ of course, count 4500€ ex VAT for a complete new assembly, you send your box and get it newly assembled, i know it is not given but after you have a true racing box.
http://www.swrmotorsport.com is distributing SADEV products in UK for info.
It it could help .... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
I was reading this intersting post and thought it could be interesting to remember that SADEV a french cie located in West of France produces a complete new internal dog type (straight cut gears) for the UN1 box. It was assembled at the time on Ventury LM600 (yes 600 hp) so should be reliable for our cars, if you have the $$$ of course, count 4500€ ex VAT for a complete new assembly, you send your box and get it newly assembled, i know it is not given but after you have a true racing box.
http://www.swrmotorsport.com is distributing SADEV products in UK for info.
It it could help .... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
Howard Jones
Supporter
So as to keep this thread alive. I have just this week sent my gearbox to England for some work. In the end we will have a real idea what it takes to make a renault work from the point of view of someone here in the States. The shipping curency stuff can be a little daunting at first but as it turns out not all that complicated.
So watch this space....some more.
So watch this space....some more.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fyi.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fyi.gif
http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EModifications/Gearbox.html
http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/EModifications/Gearbox.html
Howard Jones
Supporter
As a update, I got my gearbox back from Chris Cole the day before yesterday. I finished up plumbing for a oil cooling system last night and over the next couple of weeks I will put the car back together. Then a lengthly update on the shipping process, costs, and early driving impressions.
Hang in there, this has been a long process but were getting there.
Hang in there, this has been a long process but were getting there.
To add what I know, (as we deal with Quaife and are also in this industry), just for what use it may be worth to all of you guys running Renault UN1s.
The `D Bell` deal with Quaife fell through some time ago and last I heard was still open to discussion, the initial reason these kits were so expensive was the very small production runs they were ordered in, it could have been different but that's how it was done and the rest is history.....
GTO have exclusive sale rights on the Quaife UN1 ATB diffs (and know what they're doing with UN1s, as do Mach 1), if you want a Quaife UN1 ATB you talk to GTO, period, Quaife America are not Quaife, they are a not the same company, if Quaife America can sell you a UN1 ATB it is because GTO say so.
SADEV do make a dog 'box, but they are not interested in road cars or road car owners for these, for those that don't know, dog boxes aren't suitable for road cars and that's the way it is, they are race kit and have a race kit price and are not to be considered a option for road cars by any means.
If enough people want to buy these kits you'll all need to get on the phone to GTO or Mach 1, if it's viable you'd have thought that one of them would pick up the ball?
The `D Bell` deal with Quaife fell through some time ago and last I heard was still open to discussion, the initial reason these kits were so expensive was the very small production runs they were ordered in, it could have been different but that's how it was done and the rest is history.....
GTO have exclusive sale rights on the Quaife UN1 ATB diffs (and know what they're doing with UN1s, as do Mach 1), if you want a Quaife UN1 ATB you talk to GTO, period, Quaife America are not Quaife, they are a not the same company, if Quaife America can sell you a UN1 ATB it is because GTO say so.
SADEV do make a dog 'box, but they are not interested in road cars or road car owners for these, for those that don't know, dog boxes aren't suitable for road cars and that's the way it is, they are race kit and have a race kit price and are not to be considered a option for road cars by any means.
If enough people want to buy these kits you'll all need to get on the phone to GTO or Mach 1, if it's viable you'd have thought that one of them would pick up the ball?
Howard Jones
Supporter
Just so no one will have any misconceptions. This thread started life as ".....D Bell upgrade" because I didn't know what else was avaiable at the time. D.Bell was very responsive and sent me all the information I asked for. I believe that he could have supplied me with a fine rebuild/upgrade. They offer a different type of LSD and as I wanted to use a Quaife and I liked C.C's gear ratios better I had Chris Cole do my gearbox.
Nothing bad to say about anyone.
Mister moderator, might we change this thread to "R21 Renault internal gears/LSD upgrade". So as to be as accurate as possible.
Nothing bad to say about anyone.
Mister moderator, might we change this thread to "R21 Renault internal gears/LSD upgrade". So as to be as accurate as possible.
Howard Jones
Supporter
Update. I drove my car yesterday for the first time after installing my R21 with the updated main-shaft and LSD from Quaife as installed by Chris Cole. This is a very early first impression but I am happy to report that it works. The change in gear ratios from 3.6 1st gear to 2.7 and the 3.0 to 2.2 2nd really work well with a SBF torque curve. Feels like a close ratio toploader with one more gear.
I should say that I don't have the ratio chart in front of me right now so the above numbers are approximate.
The LDS is magic. The car feels like it has 100 less HP. I "tried" it out on my favorite 2nd gear corner and where it was all wheel spin and sideways before now it is just a nice even power slide with just a hint of both rear tires slip angle going up in a nice progressive way. AND a much harder acceleration with both rear tires noticeably gripping the pavement.
So for now that's it. Seams to work well and watch this space for a complete report on the whole process.
I should say that I don't have the ratio chart in front of me right now so the above numbers are approximate.
The LDS is magic. The car feels like it has 100 less HP. I "tried" it out on my favorite 2nd gear corner and where it was all wheel spin and sideways before now it is just a nice even power slide with just a hint of both rear tires slip angle going up in a nice progressive way. AND a much harder acceleration with both rear tires noticeably gripping the pavement.
So for now that's it. Seams to work well and watch this space for a complete report on the whole process.
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Welcome to the converted Howard! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
I just knew you'd love the ATB Diff from Quaife... Power slides Galore!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
A great conversion from Derek - UN1s will be rarer than ever...
I just knew you'd love the ATB Diff from Quaife... Power slides Galore!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
A great conversion from Derek - UN1s will be rarer than ever...
