Does style matter?

[Cliff Beer]

OK, somewhat of a rhetorical question....

Here's the nub of it: each race driver has a unique style. I've noticed that some guys are all over the place, sawing at the wheel with the car sideways half the time while others drive a pretty straight line with minimal drift and minimal steering wheel inputs/adjustments.

A couple of contrasting examples:

YouTube - Adrian Newey driving the Ford GT40 at the Circuit de Catalunya

YouTube - Porsche 911 RUF Nurburgring

The first (GT40) looks like a Sunday drive. The second (911 Yellow Bird)....well, that fella has some brass ones. It takes some nerve to hold a four wheel drift at 125mph with an oak tree going by just off the rear quarter.

Me personally, I like to have the tail wagging out pretty good and feel its faster overall to be pretty much on the edge of a spin at all times. But, that's hard on tires and probably fine for sprint races (and if you can afford it) but not much good for endurance races. It certainly is fun. Said another way: “If everything seems under control, you' re just not going fast enough” (Mario Andretti). But then, there are very successful race car drivers in everything from F1 to LeMans to spec that rarely put a wheel off the track and do very well.

Am I the only guy that wonders about this?

ps. I've noticed that most club track days are attended primarily by very tame drivers. Perhaps because they need that car to drive them to work on Monday.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Don't dismiss out of hand the possibility that Adrian Newey, driving the same car as the other guy but in his "Sunday Drive" style, might be going faster.

 

[Jim Craik]

Cliff,

In 1974 on the way home from Newport, where Coragous beat Southrn Cross, We went to Mosport for the GP.

In those days almost everyone but Ferrari and BRM used Cosworth.

But even with the same motor, the cars were very different in their handling, the drivers as well. We got there on Tues and they were just starting a two day test, so we saw alot. The rear pit gate was just left open until Friday. Can you imagine that today!

Carlos Pace and Ronnie Peterson were fabulous to watch, always on the edge, absolutely magical. But then there was Fittapaldi and Lauda, they were smooth, no drama, they looked slow. Of course the Mclaren and Ferrari were fastest and Fittapaldi won.

One great memory, Thurs morning we tagged along with James Hunt and Hans Stuck as the walked the track. Very interesting.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

If you are going sideways you are not going forward, so sideways = slow!
I'm of course talking tarmac not dirt. Hanging the tail out looks spectacular but makes your lap times slower. If you like doing it take up drifting.

 

[Ron Earp]

OK, somewhat of a rhetorical question....

Here's the nub of it: each race driver has a unique style. I've noticed that some guys are all over the place, sawing at the wheel with the car sideways half the time while others drive a pretty straight line with minimal drift and minimal steering wheel inputs/adjustments.

You need to observe this and take into account the tires that are being used on the car in question as well as the spring rates and car setup. With my own Z car I run it on modern Hoosier race tires. These tires are stiff, sticky, and are not fast drifting them around the track. Besides, they don't give warning they're about to lose traction the way that many other tires do, they're very subtle and then gone.

If I ran my car at a vintage event I'd have to put on some vintage tires. And with some bias ply tires the entire the look of the car going through corners will completely change. Then we'll be drifting around a bit, sliding a lot, and so on, as the tires are forgiving and give plenty of warning before losing all traction.

Ultimately I'd probably also need to change spring, bar, and shock rates between the two tire types to get the best each has to offer.

 

[Jim Craik]

Pete,

What you say is mostly true, except.........

Now we move ahead to Long Beach a few years later.

Jody Schecter in the little Wolf leading Andretti (Lotus) and Lauda (Ferrari).

The Lotus and Ferrari were on rails, smooth.....

The Wolf, sideways, every turn, every lap......Jody would have won in spectacular fashion, except fora flat rear tire a few laps from the end.

 

[Rich E.]

I agree with the posts above especially about setup and chassis configuration. To me it looked like the individual driving the Porsche was inducing the slides for entertainment value. He definately knew his way around the ring but there were alot of "Swedish flicks" going on. Not to mention his constant transition between under and over steer indicative of the rear engined, huge slow turbo, configuration.

Personally I try to be as efficient as I can. If I hit my apex's, can stay on throttle as long as my brakes allow and be mindful of my braking zones, I find that the speed is a byproduct.

 

[Dalton Veitch]

So far we seem to have determined that there will be a basic racing style that is pre-determined by the car (type of tyre, big capacity and torquey engine or small revvy engine, sophistication of suspension, etc.) with driving style superimposed on that, to the extent possible within the boundaries of the car's configuration. Does style count? I would think smoother is faster overall, but it can be more exciting to watch someone all over the track muscling a hairy Cobra or similar around.

 

[David in Durango]

(Just opinion here)
First, Schekter was alway sideways . . .

Imagine, shifting gears with a lever? hahaha

Some difference in a race bred chassis vs. a VW derived chassis (remember, opinion).

"You can't make a racecar out of a pig. You CAN make a damn fast pig."
Hurley Haywood on the 935 Turbo.

 

[Chris Headon]

I agree with Rich E That guy knew what he was doing and was driving either for fun or effect. You don't throw a 911 into a tail slide and get away with it unless you know what you are doing and you certainly don't do that on the ring in a 911 unless you REALLY know what you are doing, that guy was going fast and knew the circuit well to drive like that. I've been on the ring and that was a sub 9 minute lap even with the slides, sub 9 minutes is fast in anyones books. Whether he would have gone faster without all the theatricals? I think he would.

 

[Leon]

Just for fun I'll add my two cents, a few years back we went to a track day at Pukekohe (NZ) in my 928. I was a Rally guy back then so went out and had the thing sideways everywhere. Great fun. The guys I was with said try keeping it straight and smooth, so I went out drove with the same vigor but just kept it in check with minimal twitch coming out under power instead of full chuck going in and my lap times were 3 sec faster. The next time I went I took my 2.3 Chevette rally car on slicks and was 6 sec faster than the 928, Its a few years ago but I think my Chevette did 1-09s It was a quick little car, I got clocked at a Rally Sprint at Woodhill @ 132mph on gravel. Cheers Leonmac

 

[Jim Cowden]

2 incidents I can relate to over driving, I was at a meeting and we had about 10 laps to qualify in, I told the guys I will qualify in the first 3 laps then I want to try a few things.
I did my 3 and I was trying fairly hard, I then slowed down coming into several corners that I thought I was not in the right spot on the entry.

When I came in my fastest lap was lap 7, I truly thought I was driving at about 70-80% after lap 3.

I told a freind this experiance and he told me of a similar situation.
He was late getting to the track, he was in a panic and he said he drove as hard as he could to qualify his car (this guy is experianced as a driver) he said his cool down lap was his fastest and it put him 2nd on the grid.

Leon you are at advantage 1/2 the roads are gravel in NZ so that means that 50% of the time you are practicing.

Jim

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

A friend of mine since Kindergarden has driven all sorts of stuff (including the last days of Can-Am) and is famous for saying "You have to slow down to go fast". The quote is not original to him, but he is the distributor!

 

[Leon]

Yeh Jim, We are blessed with some of the best rally roads in the world. If I had the money that would be my chosen Motorsport for sure. Having said that where I live in Taranaki we only have a full Tarmac Rally each year regarded as the best in the country. Cheers Leon.

 

[mike zappa gt40r]

I've raced everything from MG's, Chevron b16, datsun 510, formula ford, and now a GT40. Every instructor will tell you that in making a turn, you need to straighten the arc. So clipping the apex and making long arcs is generally the quickest way around a track. Some cars need to oversteer in order to get the ass end around without too much steering input. In other words, to be fast, limit the slipping, too much friction.

 

[Jack]

"Get a large scale map of the track, start playing laying out string. Shortest string wins!" John Paul Newman