Dynamic wing - what do you think?

Ian Clark

Supporter
The question of dynamic wing speaks to effectiveness and safety. An effective improvement will help you win races though only if yours is more "effective" than the competition, otherwise it's for the "show". No competitive gain is no gain. Make it easier to pass, as in the F Duct you improve the "show".

However you have to survive the show. Safety is a much bigger concern today than when the first wings appeared. Yes there were dramatic failures in the early examples and moveable aerodynamic devices were banned. For a while we had decent looking reasonble to drive cars, then came ground effects and later the high tech manipulation of fixed aero devices.

Now in F1, Nascar, LMP1-2 and lesser classes we cars that are nearly impossible to pass, literally throw themselves over if the aero is disturbed and the show isn't what it used to be. The cars are safer to crash however.

Aero devices are absolute in operation. If you make an absolute variable by computer, or human or infinately small but probable random factors you have seriously set back safety and increased costs as well.

At racing speeds if you are counting on enough downforce from your aero package to deliver say 3gs worth of traction and something happens, something minor, instantly you are no longer driving the line, your on a tangent into the kitty litter or worse.

Suppose you are a fairly talented driver like Mark Weber and forget to move your elbow (or whatever controls the F Duct) under braking, well you have a spectacular lack of stopping power. There's enough to do in a race car without fiddling with adjustable aero.

Today the rules require a certain heights, body shapes, wing profiles etc. on scrutineering yet at racing speeds the wings, end plates, splitters, barge boards etc drop / flex or magically move into an optimum range, one that is not possible at static height. Now you have a variable aero device, the whole car, which has become ride height dependant just like ground effects.

This is as much a safety concerrn as sliding skirts, sucker fans, movable wings (all banned) because as we've seen, a slight rise in ride height can take out most if not all your downforce.

So I'm in favour of wing or aero packages that are 1) Safe in construction 2) Not be ride height dependant 3) Not be susceptable to human error 4) Not be susceptable to sudden losses due to common racing circmstances such as raising a wheel on a speed bump or a nudge from another car.

Arriving at an effective aero package to those standards would change the cars shape and characteristics of the aero devices, I suspect a reduction in total downforce and less distrurbance to cars trying to pass. Makes too much sense yes?
 
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Then when you enter a turn, the wing reduces angle of attack to provide the correct amount of downforce to balance the front aero. If it didn't, you'd get a high speed aero push.
How does the wing/software know what the balance point is and where to adjust the rear wing to achieve the balance point? Are there load sensors at the front and rear or something?

Assuming every car pushes into corner entry and wanting reduced downforce at the rear is dead-wrong and dependent on a vast number of other scenarios. I'm not saying you never want less downforce at the rear under corner entry but to assume it does doesn't sound so smart to me. Is the wing capable of increasing its attack angle into corner entry if so required?

Btw, I think this is a great product and could be interested in a product (non-split) that is adaptable to wings other than your own profiles and some concerns about how it works are addressed.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
The PURPOSE of a variable angle of attack wing in to control DRAG. Not increase cornering speed. The problem:

1. Rule packages limmit power with engine size, boost, or other restrictions.
2. Rules limmit max corner grip with tire, wing size and other body generating down force regs.
3. Maximum speed in a straight line is a result of available power and drag.
4. If the drag can be reduced on the straights then top speed will increase.
5. You will want the cornering/braking downforce back at the end of the straight.

Vary wing angle of attack, resulting in very low drag on the straights and max drag(downforce) in the brake zone and corners.

Variable wing = drag control

The problem is that systems like this, apart from the safety issues, ruins racing. The brake zones get shortened up and time time spent in the corners gets reduced to the point that nobody has enough time to pass anyone.
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
What do I think?

I already stated one opinion - but just to put emphasis on it -

I think someone is going to get badly hurt or worse...

I cannot tell you the number of times I have been deep in a corner at a high rate of speed (150+ mph) and truly felt that if a fly were to land on any one corner of the car, I would be airborn or off into a wall or the car next to me..

Aerodynamics are best left stationary... When the splitter ripped off of the front of my Cobra, I was well deep in a high G corner at a very high rate of speed.. I took a ride - followed by a flight - that I never want to go through again...

I hope that the only people they sell these to are the Ricers that want to impress people on the highway or driving through town..
 
The PURPOSE of a variable angle of attack wing in to control DRAG. Not increase cornering speed.

Well, it CAN control cornering speed given the fact that without angle control, you are making a compromise between cornering speed and straight line speed. If you can have both with a variable angle wing, then you are controlling both straight line speed (drag as you said) and cornering speed. Basically, change in one has an affect on the other as well.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Here's a picture that really illustrates the point. Many will recognize the cars and drives and remember the race. This is the last lap of the 1979 French GP. Both cars are running very nearly the same lap times. The Renault with has something on the order of at least another 150 HP V6 turbo versus the NA flat 12 in Villeneuve's car.

But look at the areo packages. The Arnoux's wings are HUGE!!!!! Both front and rear. The Ferrari is all trimmed out. The F guys were running nearly NO wing so that they could keep in tow behind the Renaults on the straights.

Qualifying times for the two cars were 2 10's difference with the other Renault on the pole and Jilles on the inside of the second row 3rd.

Renault used their huge HP advantage to push all at drag through the air down the straights so that they could be just that much quicker in the corners. The 1st and last being very high speed long ones. The plan worked for them and they qualified 1,2.

They didn't count of Jilles simply out driving the Renault over the last few laps to keep Rene behind him and preventing Renault from a 1-2 finish. Jabouille won the race and brought Renault it's first GP win in a modern Turbo car.

If you ever get to watch the last 3 laps of this race it is clear that Jilles Ferrari was all over the track sideways and the Renault had a LOT more grip. Jilles just dirt tracked the Frenchman out of the way.

Great stuff.

I guess we are really saying the same thing, just a different way of expressing it. The thing to take from this is if HP isn't a limiting factor, as in a open track car without engine power rules, then why not just run a huge wing and alot of power and be done with it. The monkey motion associated with the variable wing thing is not only going to be a hand-full to tune but does open up the question of reliability and thus safety. The split wing thing doesn't make any sense to me on a road race car. Maybe on a oval track car, except I am not aware of open track oval events. None of the real racing sanctioning bodies will EVER allow these on a real race-car. Hell..... NASCAR just took the wing OFF!
 

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Ian Clark

Supporter
Seems like the consensus is with safety over innovation. Not to say any of us (certified Ludite myself included) are against new things. The race car engineers' job is to find advantages within the letter of the rules.

After Bruce McLaren and Mark Donohue there weren't many driver/engineers. It's easier to incorporate more risky designs into a race car you're not personally driving...

That said, good design, however complicated in execution, has to have linear response incorporated. Even with steep rise rates, everything that happens moves from its fastest to slowest range progressively. There's no off/on switch for brakes, throttle, corner grip, everything blends and balances otherwise there is no control or skill required. Also no satisfaction in driving or watching.

So it comes back to linerarity and reliability. Howard raised a good point in that using a dynamic wing to cut drag where you don't need is the idea. However if it's driver or logic/parameter controlled there is a very good chance of things going horribly wrong as Randy related to in his own experience. A sudden loss of aero is like an on/off switch in the wrong position.

Stationary wings and aero devices are predictable, we're probably way over downforce right now anyways. Taking away downforce will slow down the cars, not good for the show some would argue. Taking away aero dependance so drivers could get on with it and actually make some moves would improve the show, who's going to care if the existing lap record at a track stands for 30 years when you have great racing? Sorry for the thread drift, it's just too important.

Cheers
 
Ian Clark: very thoughtful post. My thoughts on the consensus are that this type of technology is not for everyone, especially organized racing participants. Jim Hall, Smokey Yunick, Bruce McClaren, Andy Granatelli, Porsche (the 917 active-wing experiment), Mercedes (the air brake on the 300SL), et al have proven that whenever someone brings something new to the racetrack, it is immediately banned.

Many of the opinions on this thread have addressed "the show" - how the racecars "look" on the track as a group. That is a discussion that would involve tire sizes, restrictor plates, body profiles, and dozens of other factors

For non-racing people, those who just want to go faster on a racetrack and improve their own lap times, this is another device to tinker with. You can learn a lot about aerodynamics and their applications to cars using this split wing. You can actually feel and see the differences in the seat of your pants and on the stopwatch, rather than guessing, as most do.

If I had an extra $7,500.00 to spend, it would be my next purchase. I also think that a three-part wing would be even more effective - the outside sections for left/right downforce and the center section for high-angle aero downforce/drag braking. My guess would be that the braking section would be more useful as a high-angle drag device, rather than a downforce-inducing rear-wheel traction device.

Bottom line is that opinions are really not as important as actual data. Could somebody on this forum buy one, install force meters under the supports, and measure the actual downforces for us? That'd be cool.
 

Ian Clark

Supporter
Brian, I agree there have been bad calls in banning some new technologies.

About the dynamic wing, I believe there is a place for it. It's also valid technology with real benefits. Just not on a race track...

Put these wings on high end road cars, cars that are running in there own airspace, not racing two feet away from another car doing 200mph.

The close proximity and extremely short reaction times make introducing another variable unsafe. Especially so when you consider the control and interaction of the variable is imprecise and or unpredictable.

The Data is out there already to know what's going on, extensive wind tunnel tests show teams what happens when the wing angle is adjusted. This is done to find the optimum setting for the wing. So you could take this data and reasonably predict what an adjustable or dynamic wing would do. Simple...

Well simple untill you take into consideration the effect on the aerodynamic pressure center and front downforce. Now it gets unsimple by galactic proportions.

Still worthwhile and very cool technology offering functional and aesthetic improvements for many cars.
 
Well, it's clear we won't be developing any GT40 wings, LOL.

As a data point, there are hundreds of active wings on race cars, all around the world, and they work great. They've been working great for years, and our track record for safety is flawless.

A lot of the theories expressed by people in this thread about how / where they work are just not accurate with the physics of it. I've got a few aerospace degrees from MIT, work with a top NASCAR team, the DoD, and actually know this stuff inside and out.

Based on the responses, and the market size of the GT40, I'll bow out of this discussion. I have appreciated your allowing me on this forum.

Cheers,
Greg
 
Greg,

Developing wings for the GT40 notwithstanding, I enjoy your input and encourage you to jump in and educate me whenever possible.
 

Ian Clark

Supporter
Hi Greg,

Please let me echo Docs comments. This is fantastic forum, easily one of the most helpfull and strait shooting on the web.

Although the GT40 marketplace alone may not suit your commercial purposes, there are lots of GT40s Forum members who own other extreme cars where there could be an application. So please don't count yourself out on this bunch of car nuts, thank you.

Also this is a great place to share info and new developements. Not surprisingly some differences of opinion are routed in lack of or misinformation. We're info hogs here, quite eager to learn new things and grow. So please chime in on topics, you will have an attentive audience.

Cheers
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
Although the GT40 marketplace alone may not suit your commercial purposes, there are lots of GT40s Forum members who own other extreme cars where there could be an application. So please don't count yourself out on this bunch of car nuts, thank you.

Also, the views expressed by the relatively small group of people contributing to this thread are not necessarily representative of the membership of this forum, nor of GT40 owners in general.

I'd sure hate to see you make a business decision based on this small sampling of opinions, especially if it resulted in my losing an option as a GT40 owner.
 
It is indeed unfortunate that many, if not most people dismiss anything new before really understanding how it works. Believe it or not, Edison Company in the 30's had to go around to the farmers and "sell" electricity. The farmers said that they were fine with lantern oil and wood-burning stoves. "Somebody is going to get hurt. Burned or electrocuted or worse", they said.

It is also unfortunate that these "experts" are listened to and taken seriously by those who are trying to educate us who are not experts. We will miss Wingman's contributions, but I am still frustrated by the lack of data on actual downforce produced by these wings.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
OK, ok........... I see how it could work, I just can't see me spending the time at a open track day trying to set it up. How does the control system work? Does it use some sort of slip angle sensor or wheel skid sensing system to "learn" the grip parameters of a given car on a given lap. Or does the driver just need to work out best wing angle for each corner and make adjustments as you drive around the lap. I am guessing that you would go full trimmed out down all the straights and max angle of attack (full air brake) on the brakes. It's the variations of the corners that I have questions about.

By the way the braking fore/aft balance thing is the thing that intrigues me the most. I can really see that working at the end of the really fast straights and max effort brake areas.

Areo guy please don't get discouraged, we like a good technical discussion fro time to time. Patience grass hopper. You might just be able to enlighten a few old codgers around here! Including me!
 
All right Howard! It is not that clear to me, but from their web site, it looks like it is computerized with input from a g-force sensor (like in a WII game) as well as speed. That makes the most sense to me.

For example, let's say you had the "trigger" set at .5 lateral g's, then anytime your cornering exceeded .5 g's to the right (turning left), it would trigger the left wing section to rise. The same could be done with longitudinal g forces. When the braking generated more than say, .6 g's, then both wings could rise to the "stall" angle and act like a barn door.

It is unfortunate that Wingman gave up so easily because he could have helped with these questions.
 
Well, it's clear we won't be developing any GT40 wings, LOL.

Cheers,
Greg

I am very glad to hear that. Wings (and for that matter chin mounted splitters) on GT40s are an anathema as far as I am concerned. If you want to put wings and other aero devices on your track car, get an SL-C, Ultima or something like that. Just IMO.
 
I am very glad to hear that. Wings (and for that matter chin mounted splitters) on GT40s are an anathema as far as I am concerned. If you want to put wings and other aero devices on your track car, get an SL-C, Ultima or something like that. Just IMO.
Ironically, the GT40 was way ahead of its time with aero devices, especially the Mark IV. Notice the nose openings and the hood deflectors: those weren't for airflow to the radiators, they were for downforce. Also the shape of the rear quarter panels, the spoiler side extensions, the spoiler, and even the shape of the lower rear.

If man was meant to fly, god would have given him wings (and feathers and a made him lighter and certainly would have shaped him differently) lol.
 
Okay, I'll stay.

There are three basic wing angles.
Braking- High downforce, high drag.
Cornering - Correct downforce to balance the front downforce
Straightaway - minimum drag.

If you run the maximum wing angle (before stall) at all points in the track, you have more than just a drag penalty, you have a high-speed aero push. Like all understeer, it's not the fastest way around the track. The correct setup is about a 50/50 aero balance. Now, truth be told, only the top pro drivers are fastest with 50/50 spit. Most people are faster with 45/55, which is what we tuned into the new Ferrari 460 package.

Straightaway is critically important. If you drop the wing too low, you'll upset the center of pressure (aero ballance) and in a mid engine car like the GT40, you can spin.

The computer works with a G sensor, and speed sensors. The correct program can determine exactly what the wing should do. GTR's, for example, run the same program on track's around the world. Even if the toilet flushes backwards, the car works the same (really, we had a guy ask).

As for keeping wings off the GT40, we get the same thing from some of the Ferrari guys. At the end of the day, track cars have wings, street cars don't. Our customer base is 90% track day cars, and 10% pro teams, of which Rhys's Pikes Peak car is the only one we're allowed to discuss. BTW, it's an amazing car. If you ever have the chance to stop by his shop, I highly recommend checking it out.

As far as how the algorithm works, we don't disclose the details of that. In simplest form, it knows when you're braking, cornering, etc, through the G sensor. But if you ran a wing on that alone, you'd be in for some accidents.

The wing has a few patents pending. We play that game well, and will not send out unpublished pending patents. We've had people ask.

As for the tune, it's car dependent. The GTR's run a plug and play tune, which requires minimal setup, as we have run full car CFD and have spent many days at the track, with many different GTR's (which helps control for suspension issues, etc). Here's a pic of the GTR CFD, and a page on the GT-R Wing development.

clean_center-streamlines-vmag-small.jpg


That said, the F430 wind tunnel tune is like nothing we've ever done before. The 180mph rolling road tunnel cost 42M to build, and $4k / hour to test in. It was made for the F1 guys, and measures the load and drag at each wheel with unbelievable accuracy. We spent two days in there. When we got to Cavallino, and put the car on track, there was no additional tuning. It just worked. For that car, the package can maintain a desired aero balance (45/55 or otherwise) from 60-180mph. That car also has fully active front aero to balance out the wing in extreme situations.

Putting a package like that on a GT40 would require a $100k check for the first guy, and $30k for everyone thereafter. If you buy a 430 wing, you can thank Michael for bringing that package to the community.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm excited for F1 this year! I'll be watching the wings :)

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/edEx4nXdIlY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Greg
 
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