EFI Versus Carburettor...

Mike Pass

Supporter
PS beware Efi prices. You need to tot up EVERYTHING not just the pretty bits. Don't forget the swirl pot , welding in returns into your fuel tanks, wiring and relays, braided hose and loads of alloy fittings, rolling road time, fuel pumps filters etc. etc. etc etc.

Cheers
Mike
 
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This however can be avoided if you build it up with a neutral balance. The method of achieving this can be by having heavy slugs put in the crank webs or if you pick the right steel crank it can be achieved by removing weight from the crank ( you need light steel rods such as eagle I-section rods( H-section are heavier) and light forged pistons) Check Martin Gough's Southern GT No 8 build thread for details. I can't remember which Eagle stroker crank was used but Eagle website and Real Steel said it couldn't be done! It was in fact very easy to get it neutral balanced and the engine is sweet as a nut - no vibration at all

Cheers
Mike

All Eagle 302, 331, 347 forged cranks, will now neutral balance without heavy metal even with H beam rods. Their nodular cranks will balance @ neutral with one slug of heavy metal with I beam rods.
Mike
 
PS beware Efi prices. You need to tot up EVERYTHING not just the pretty bits. Don't forget the swirl pot , welding in returns into your fuel tanks, wiring and relays, braided hose and loads of alloy fittings, rolling road time, fuel pumps filters etc. etc. etc etc.

Cheers
Mike

Our kits include all wiring, relays, braided hose, alloy fittings, fuel pump, two filters, e- coil, spiro plug leads etc, etc etc
Mike
 
Mike,
When you link the tanks you have to use a check valve or flapper valve that allows the fuel to go in one direction. Then the flow won't happen unless the reserve tank is higher(fuller) than the active tank, and there are no rises in the connector line(it has to stay low). I am working on a system that will actively(without pumps) get the reserve to the primary tank. I have an EFI system and thus have return flow to deal with. I tried it(passively) with 10AN lines and a restrictorless one wayvalve(not at home or I would include a picture) that most supply houses have. The problem is that the flow isn't fast enough. The gas guage on the primary tank goes down faster than the flow back to it. Once shut off, the tank level actually goes up. this also causes the reserve tank to over fill if it is full enough. When I perfect the system I will present it here. It is very simple, but I need to build it to test it out. I am doing that as we speak. It will prevent the overfilling, sloshing and air entrainment to the pump. Would elaborate, but won't til done or tried out. If it is a ringer, then I won't look so foolish.

Bill
 
Graham, You're avatar sums up how I'm feeling right now. I've had my GT40 for about 9 months and I run a 347 stroker with 4 44IDF's on top. Like others have already said they look and sound fantastic. BUT....I've yet to get the car to run the way it should for very long and it frustrates the hell outta me. My input, the Holley is inexpensive and easy to maintain. The webers are fantastic and a bit pricey and can be high (very high!) maintenance. (But if you have a local Weber "expert" then I'd go with them.) But if you don't have a local expert think hard about the webers. If cost were not an object I'd go with the EFI with the Weber look. Very Pricey though. My head hurts when I think about all I've done to get my engine right but the spitting and backfiring has left me feeling empty and drained. The car now sits in my garage, untouched.

Jimmy, thats a sad state to be in my friend. Why not sell the 44IDF's and get a Holley. Pocket the difference and save up for the ultimate. I hate the thought of a '40 languishing in the garage through frustration (although I have yet to see mine on wheels yet :) ).

All the best,

Graham.
 
Mike,
When you link the tanks you have to use a check valve or flapper valve that allows the fuel to go in one direction. Then the flow won't happen unless the reserve tank is higher(fuller) than the active tank, and there are no rises in the connector line(it has to stay low). I am working on a system that will actively(without pumps) get the reserve to the primary tank. I have an EFI system and thus have return flow to deal with. I tried it(passively) with 10AN lines and a restrictorless one wayvalve(not at home or I would include a picture) that most supply houses have. The problem is that the flow isn't fast enough. The gas guage on the primary tank goes down faster than the flow back to it. Once shut off, the tank level actually goes up. this also causes the reserve tank to over fill if it is full enough. When I perfect the system I will present it here. It is very simple, but I need to build it to test it out. I am doing that as we speak. It will prevent the overfilling, sloshing and air entrainment to the pump. Would elaborate, but won't til done or tried out. If it is a ringer, then I won't look so foolish.

Bill

Bill,

A bit of thread drift here from me, but my plan (as shown on my build log)
is to connect the two tanks with nice wide 5/8'ths braided hose. I plan to tee off this pipe to pick up the fuel, with a reducing tee to 3/8th's to the fuel pump. This means that the tank connecting pipe (5/8ths) can be higher than the tanks at the point it Tee's off to the pumps, as the pump(s) can draw fule evenly from both tanks, as it is drawing from the highest point in the system. Sense check me on this please, but it follows logic, and I can't see a downside as yet...

Here's a (really) simplistic layout. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers,

Graham.
 

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I was under the impression fuel injection pumps had to be gravity fed to prevent pressure loss across the pump and therefore avoid cavitation.

Not sure, but I thought that was the case.
 
I was under the impression fuel injection pumps had to be gravity fed to prevent pressure loss across the pump and therefore avoid cavitation.

Not sure, but I thought that was the case.

This is beyond my technical knowledge. Anyone care to help out here?

Cheers,

Graham.
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
EFI pumps, (Bosch in general) are positive displacement pumps (they can suck up from the tank) although its not good on the pump itself as they are not meant to run dry it will work, if your plumbing is tight with no leaks on the input side of the pump it will work.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Graham

I run fuel injection on my car

2 tanks into 1 pollack 6 way changeover
Out of changeover into filter
Out of filter low pressuure pump (Facit Red top)
Facit Red to Swirl pot
Return from swirl back to pollack 6 way valve
Pollack 6 way return to tank from whence the fuel came

Then from swirl to HP pump
HP pump to Rail and pressure regulator
Return to swirl pot

All the above is mounted on the bottom chassis box sections in my car - as low as possible

From half tank level under braking I can hear the Facit red top note change as it sucks air (Really hammers away!) Tanks have explosafe in not foam.

So unless you have a good sump arrangement in your tank I don't think a single HP fuel pump would work - it would suck too much air too often

I have also seen on here that you would probably need an inch diameter connector pipebetween the tanks (Especially if you are doing Efi and only returning to one tank)

IAn
 
Graham

I run fuel injection on my car

2 tanks into 1 pollack 6 way changeover
Out of changeover into filter
Out of filter low pressuure pump (Facit Red top)
Facit Red to Swirl pot
Return from swirl back to pollack 6 way valve
Pollack 6 way return to tank from whence the fuel came

Then from swirl to HP pump
HP pump to Rail and pressure regulator
Return to swirl pot

All the above is mounted on the bottom chassis box sections in my car - as low as possible

From half tank level under braking I can hear the Facit red top note change as it sucks air (Really hammers away!) Tanks have explosafe in not foam.

So unless you have a good sump arrangement in your tank I don't think a single HP fuel pump would work - it would suck too much air too often

I have also seen on here that you would probably need an inch diameter connector pipebetween the tanks (Especially if you are doing Efi and only returning to one tank)

IAn

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the Info.

I have 5/8ths ID pipe connecting the two tanks at present. Each tank does have a 1/4" BSP fitting at the bottom, but this won't be any good for fuel return, because they are at the bottom (I'm guessing). You are returning your fuel via the Pollock 6 way. Is this to the top of the tanks?

I'm getting this pictured in my head bit by bit....

Thanks guys,

Graham.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Hi Graham

Correct the fuel returns to the tank via the Pollack unit

My returns go back in to the top of the tank but in reality they coud return to any part of the tank.

I would suggest that even if you use the 1/4 bsp hole in the tank you add a 90 degree bend and take it to the height of the top of the tank. That way if any of your pipes come lose / rupture you are not going to have the fuel just pour out.

Ian
 
Coming late to this thread by will throw in my experience:

I converted a 383SBC in a manual transmission performance street application from 4 barrel 750cfm Holley double pumper clone ( Proform Parts 67200 - Proform Race Series Mechanical Secondary Carburetors - Overview - SummitRacing.com ) to 4 x 47mm OER (DCOE clones) on a crossram ( http://www.webcon.co.uk/Downloads/PCV401-MAR07.pdf ) to Holley commander 950Pro ( Holley 91005201 - Holley Commander 950 MPFI Systems - Overview - SummitRacing.com ) all inside 12 months on top of an identical engine configuration. A good back to back test, albeit subjective.

I am a fussy bugger when it comes to tuning so I put real effort into getting each combo optimised at both WOT and for driveability and economy using decent test gear. I tried 4 750 4 barrel carbs before adopting the proform carb - it was by far and away better than Holley 750 vac sec #3310, Holley DP #4719, Holley DP with annular boosters, in both response, economy, and outright power. All Holley carbs were atop the same edelbrock performer EPS intake. Engine has mild hyd roller cam, 10.6 c.r.

Key observations:

Proform 750: Good economy when idle restriction orifices tuned properly, would take a punch to full throttle from an idle roll in first gear and just light the tyres with no bog or fuss, tractible down to about 1300 in 3rd 4th and 5th, useful torque 2-5k, usable to 5500-ish.

OERs on crossram: a glorious looking and sounding excercise in pain. Spent weeks and weeks getting them as perfect as poss. In the end good driveability could only be delivered with poor economy, they could not take large thottle openings cleanly unless the main circuits were already flowing regardless of what I did to the pump shot, better that the holley below 2k if you rolled into the throttle in a tall gear, about the same in the mid range, dead after 5 grand.

Holley MPEFI: ECU is rubbish but hardware is good. Controlled with a Link g4 ECU ( G4 Xtreme — Link Engine Management Systems - plug-in & wire-in aftermarket ECU's ) running sequential injection this has nearly OEM quality cold start and idle manners, potters down to 1000rpm in 3rd 4th and 5th while climbing and pulls cleanly (much better than the carb'd set-ups) about the same as the 750 up to 5k, and a little more life than the 750 set-up up to my self imposed cut-out at 5600. Best economy of all but not by much over the 750. A lot of the benefits are associated with the ability to control ignition timing and to alter timing and fuel for changing ambient conditions. Much more induction noise than the 750 because there is no fuel or booster venturis sitting in the airstream. The difference at the top end will be mostly down to the intake manifold - 750 was dual plane, MPEFI open plenum. LOots and lots of time out on the road with Innovate LC1 and laptop getting it perfect. Be prepared to work to get the best out of it. Datalogging capability is a real boon to tuning once you get the hang of it.

Summary: I won't go back to carbs but in a maximum effort application living between peak torque rpm and peak power rpm a good 4 barrel on a good open plenum intake is still hard to beat and is cheap. EFI properly done is superior in my experience in the real world on the street, but is more expensive and does demand you put the effort in to get the benefits.

Cheers, Andrew
 
Graham

I run fuel injection on my car

2 tanks into 1 pollack 6 way changeover
Out of changeover into filter
Out of filter low pressuure pump (Facit Red top)
Facit Red to Swirl pot
Return from swirl back to pollack 6 way valve
Pollack 6 way return to tank from whence the fuel came

Then from swirl to HP pump
HP pump to Rail and pressure regulator
Return to swirl pot

All the above is mounted on the bottom chassis box sections in my car - as low as possible

From half tank level under braking I can hear the Facit red top note change as it sucks air (Really hammers away!) Tanks have explosafe in not foam.

So unless you have a good sump arrangement in your tank I don't think a single HP fuel pump would work - it would suck too much air too often

I have also seen on here that you would probably need an inch diameter connector pipebetween the tanks (Especially if you are doing Efi and only returning to one tank)

IAn

Hi Ian, what size swirl pot do you use, Andy
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
It's small = about a litre perhaps 1.25 litre

My logic on this
Under acceleration (when engine drinks the stuff) you have fuel slosh to the rear of the tank and the LP pump will keep the swirl full

Under braking when the fuel sloshes forward and pump sucks air the engine is on zero throttle so is using very little fuel and the return from the fuel rail goes back to the swirl.

That said the Morgan / TVR / Rover lump is turning out about 250 ponies so my fuel system requirement is a lot less than some of the high HP motors being used!

On idle the swirl tank will run about 2-3 minutes - need a hell of a lot of braking or hugh down hill section to have the LP pump dry for that long

Ian
 
Ian and others,
There is a way to get around the sloshing forward on a downhill or decel. Some tanks have walls built into them with narrow passages in the middle to slow down the flow of the fuel to the next "chamber"(even if your tank doesn't it will work). If you install a barrier to say 3/4 the height of the tank and install a trap door arrangement so that fuel is allowed to flow into the "chamber" where the pickup is located and not out, it will give the low pressure pump a reserve that will help keep the swirl pot full. Add to that the return flow from the overflow of the swirl pot, it will probably never run dry unless you are parked on a downhill with the motor running for a long period. For the original tanks with the pickup in the middle, a second trap door on the other side of the pickup would be necessary(in the opposite direction).
I am working on a version of this for the single pump(one low, one high pump) crowd. It is a little trickier than this solution. I will post it when done.

Bill
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Bill

I already only have 2 pumps

One for Low pressure - feeding the swirl pot
and one pumping HP fuel to the rail
One fuel filter
One Pollack change over unit

No solenoids
No non return valves
No major problems (Twice some of the "wire wool stuff called explosafe managed to clog one of the tank pick ups - switch to other tank and continue driving - blow it back with an air line to clear the blockage)
Over 5000 miles done
Yes the Lp pump can suck air sometimes at low fuel levels and under braking but for simplicity I dim't think it can be beaten. I agree trapdoor tanks would have been nice but they were already filled with Explosafe and fitted to the part built car when I bought it. - Perhaps when I win the lottery I'll have then remade, fit a big HP motor, change suspension etc - naah I just enjoy driving it!


Ian
 
All,

I missed the part on the "swirl pot" - what is the purpose for that, and is it a show stopper if not used? (Ahhhhhhhhhhh, got it. Here's a good explanation http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/impala/1012/cars/tech/swirl/swirlfaq.html)

Having all the same issues about price etc. (ok, mostly price). The Englese systems look bad ass and are supposedly simple.

On the fuel systems. Can I have a primary fuel tank and run the EFI from that tank, and have a secondary pump that only transfers fuel from the secondary tank to the primary tank? What am I missing?

Any sources for complete plumbing fuel system schematics that might help me decide which way to go?

Thanks,
 
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