EFI Versus Carburettor...

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
All,

I missed the part on the "swirl pot" - what is the purpose for that, and is it a show stopper if not used? (Ahhhhhhhhhhh, got it. Here's a good explanation http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/impala/1012/cars/tech/swirl/swirlfaq.html)

Having all the same issues about price etc. (ok, mostly price). The Englese systems look bad ass and are supposedly simple.

On the fuel systems. Can I have a primary fuel tank and run the EFI from that tank, and have a secondary pump that only transfers fuel from the secondary tank to the primary tank? What am I missing?

Any sources for complete plumbing fuel system schematics that might help me decide which way to go?

Thanks,

Doug

You can have whatever you want!
BUT
To make EFI work your HP pump must never see air / suck air - if it does your engine will stop as no fuel will get to injectors until it primes up again.

In a GT40 with long narrow tanks the fuel sloshes forward under braking and will mean the fuel pump will suck on air - hence the need for a swirl pot

And Likewise because the GT40 has 2 tanks you need to have a cross over valve system of sorts to ensure the returned fuel goes back to the tank you are drawing from or you will overfill one and empty the other

Ian

Edit
Sorry I just re-read the above and it did not come over right. (I sound like an arse!)

Basically I mean it's your choice and then I made some observations.

Most / All modern cars run EFI and manage to run and draw fuel from a sump at the bottom of a tank but your daily driver will never see the acceleration, cornering and deceleration that a GT40 type car will experience and the related fuel pickup problems associated with that.
Apologies
IAn
 
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Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
...
In a GT40 with long narrow tanks the fuel sloshes forward under braking and will mean the fuel pump will suck on air - hence the need for a swirl pot

Has anyone ever tried drawing from the front of one tank and the rear of the other (one pump each, Tee'd, with check valves if necessary)?
 
Has anyone ever tried drawing from the front of one tank and the rear of the other (one pump each, Tee'd, with check valves if necessary)?

What happens, when you're running low, and you have a hard acceleration and draw in air from one tank ... when the fuel level returns to normal (i.e., you stop the hard acceleration) will the fuel enter and displace the air from the line before the check valve?



Doug
To make EFI work your HP pump must never see air / suck air - if it does your engine will stop as no fuel will get to injectors until it primes up again.

What happens in carb? Does it just stumble for a second and then pickup and go again?
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
What happens, when you're running low, and you have a hard acceleration and draw in air from one tank ... ...displace the air from the line before the check valve?
?

I think the more extreme case is a long hill, where one of the inputs is just air. If it works there it works in the intermittent case.

Also, if the pump and the checkvalve are at the tank there's no line for air to enter and therefore no need for it to be displaced. ???

IAE if the pumps are not positive displacement I think whichever pump has fuel wins and keeps air from getting past the other pump's check valve since neither pump is (presumably) any good at moving air. The check valve just prevents a net flow of fuel from one tank to the other.

???
 
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I think the normal configuration for long narrow side pod tanks is two lift pumps (like a low pressure carter rotary vane etc), one drawing from the front, one drawing from the back, both feeding the bottom of a swirl pot (mine is 2 litres in volume) and both lift pumps protected by seperate 100 micron pre-filters, with an EFI pump drawing from the bottom of the swirl pot pumping through an appropriately rated 10 micron filter to the fuel rails, with the return fuel from the EFI regulator entering the top of the swirl pot, and the swirl pot overflow going back to the top of the tank.

Cheers, Andrew
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
I think the normal configuration for long narrow side pod tanks is two lift pumps... one drawing from the front, one drawing from the back, both feeding the bottom of a swirl pot (mine is 2 litres in volume) and both lift pumps protected by seperate 100 micron pre-filters, with an EFI pump drawing from the bottom of the swirl pot pumping through an appropriately rated 10 micron filter to the fuel rails, with the return fuel from the EFI regulator entering the top of the swirl pot, and the swirl pot overflow going back to the top of the tank.

Now that I think about it, with a rotary vane pump you don't need the check valves, and with a carburetor you don't need the swirl pot. So I think you can solve the whole long-tank uphill/downhill problem with one extra pump.
 
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so, as usual, carb > efi

:D

CoczEBQxEn_i-luz-omg-no-wai.jpg
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
What happens in carb? Does it just stumble for a second and then pickup and go again?

Alex

In a carb you have one or more float bowls, that in turn act as a buffer in such a case - probably allow the motor to run for about30 secs to 1 min (unless under full acceleraion) and over that period of time you should have found level road or got off the brakes long enough for the fuel pickup to be covered by fuel again.

Re the one front pick up and one rear - it might work
In practice I run on one tank and keep the other fairly full
So when I start having air drawn in (Facit fuel pump clacks loudly) I change over to the full tank. After that I'll drive say 50 miles on the full tank before looking for a filling station

Ian
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Carb:You also have the fuel within accelerator pump housing available (especially with the 50cc housing) to "foot-work" the engine for another couple of seconds before it's all over. Between that, and the quickly leaning mixture, you'll have enough warning to find a place to pull over.
 
I have completed the first step of the fuel system. It is enough to get the car running and on the road. I have made all the test and all works well. Crank up will come on Tuesday. Here is the ideal setup and it will be completed in the future if the way it is lined up runs into a problem from cornering or braking. I had already started on my system before I obtained this setup. So mine will differ a bit.
fueltanksetup.jpg


This system is for both tanks, one set of pumps and one fuel sending unit.
My system will involve the following. I am using one low pressure pump and one high pressure pump and one sending unit on the tank with the pumps. I went this way to conserve on cost and simplicity. Fewer thing to go wrong and lack of space for all the hoses.. Lord knows I don't need anything else to go wrong. So Here is the routing.The low pressure pump pick up is mounted on the rear of the passenger side tank. It could have been from the top as the drawing shows, but that area on the DRB has a frame rail above the tank leaving a one inch gap. There is a panel welded above the frame rail and that area holds the swirl pot, the 4 coils for that bank of plugs, and the rear clip fan. So it was getting a little crowded. An elbow connector on top of the access plate was too high. The fuel line would also have to be run through the frame rail and additional paneling to get to the pumps. The access plate was added to get the fuel pickup where it belonged(two right angle turns to get to the bottom of the tank and a sock filter is on the end) and to install the trap door. The trap door is to keep fuel in the rear of the tank so the pickup stays covered.
P8190255.jpg

Just in front of the trap door about 3-4 inches is a set of baffles with a slit up the middle to prevent the sloshing of fuel to the front.
P8190254.jpg

There are a series of these in the tank to slow down the wave movement of fuel in the tank. The fuel leaves the tank and goes through a Fram fuel filter to the low pressure pump. From there up to the swirl pot. Down to the high pressure pump. Up to the 10 micron filter and to the EFI. The fuel exits the fuel pressure regulator and returns to the swirl pot. From the swirl pot it overflows and returns to both tanks via a T arrangement. It enters the tanks about mid way up the tank, at the rear of the tanks. This allows the fuel to be returned on the passenger side in the trap door area. So fuel will always be there for the low pressure pump. Even on a long downhill run. In Tennessee the mountain runs are several miles long! In the drivers side tank, it dumps right over the crossover line. The two tanks are joined at the bottom of the tanks. There is a 5/16 connector between the tanks which levels the fuel in both tanks. This is mounted through the frame rails and secured to the bottom to the car. DRBs use the washboard floors so it hides and protects the fuel line.
PA270338.jpg

You will notice in the drawing that there is a big crossover line in the front between the two filler lines. This would allow you to fill both tanks from one side of the car. That is a nice idea, but I don't have the room in the front clip area due to battery placement and I don't like the idea of that fuel line in the drivers compartment. I guess if it were a welded line I wouldn't worry so much. But it isn't and I will. Also, I modified the vent lines. I have vent lines from the rear and front of both tanks. The fronts and rears are linked and then go up to a vent next to the gas fillers. In line just before the vents are rollover valves that allow the tanks to breath with changing fuel levels., but will not allow fuel to go up the lines in braking, acceleration or lord help a shunt or rollover. The fuel fillers have screw down caps under the Lemans caps. The drawing doesn't show it but the ideal situation for the fuel pickup lines is to be T'd also, drawing from both tanks. for me that would entail hacking that tank to install another trap door so air would not be sucked up. So I am using only one pickup in the passenger side. Running my pumps with the motor off and no centrifugal or inertia forces acting, the fuel level in the passenger tank does not go dry with a five gallon load shared between the two tanks.
When I frist started this idea, I had the return line only to the drivers side and passive flow to the passenger side.What I observed was that the fuel level in the passenger side would drop to nearly completely empty. When shut off the level would rise.
So two things against the passive leveling(fuel return to one tank). First the obvious. The flow from the overflow was faster to the tank than the passive leveling. Second, I did that system before I put the rollover valves in line. The flow to the drivers side was so fast that fuel would fill the tank and shoot up the vent and out of the car.That was just sitting still with out any outside forces acting on the fuel. I guess if I had the rollover valves in line it would have stopped the fuel from squirting out of the vent and forced the fuel over to the other tank, but that still isn't a good situation. I believe that is why all modern cars that have vented tanks(locking gas caps) have rollover valves installed in their vent lines.

Bill
 
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Re: EFI Versus Carburettor... Swirl Pot dynamics:

OK, I get the swirl pot thing, and I'm still learning about EFI and delivery systems. Here's the question(s); Is the swirl pot under any pressure? If the fuel tanks are vented to atmosphere (are they?), is there ever any pressure build up in the swirl pot since it's return line dumps into the fuel tank? My initial thought was that the LP pump from the fuel tank would be overwhelmed by the return pressure from the HP pump. But, if the pot vents back to the tank, there should really never be any pressure in the pot - correct? Also, is it true to say the only high pressure is between the HP pump and the fuel rails? If that is the case - where does the pressure build (dumb?, it builds after the HP pump) and then drop? Thanks,
 
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Doug,
The only places you will see pressure is after the HP pressure pump to the injectors.The LP pumps at 2-4 psi. It is basicly a carb type pump. What is more important is the flow rate of the LP pump. You want it to supply enough fuel to the swirl pot to supply the HP pump. If the hp pump is not turned on the swirl pot will just fill and dump out the overflow back to the tank(s). The purpose of the low pump is just to fill the pot for the hp pump. Now after the hp pump, the pressure will increase up to the pressure set at the fuel pressure regulator, which is after the EFI setup. The regulator is set to restrict flow until that pressure is exceeded. This creates enough pressure for the injectors to inject into the ports/manifold/cylinders. Injectors are set at whatever pressure you want as they come in various poundage requirements based on HP and RPM. After the fuel gets by the regulator, it passively goes back to the swirl pot and then out the overflow line back to the tank(s). So to answer your first question, no the tanks don't have any pressure. There really is a lot more to it, but that is the basics of it. The swirl pots function is to serve as a reservoir for the hp pump. The lp pumps only function is to supply the fuel to the swirl pot. Now you can get around all this stuff by just using a hp pump, but that opens up a whole different set of problems and setups.You really need to get some reading material on fuel injection basics. Once read it will probably make more sense to you.

Bill
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Doug

Correct because the retuurn from the swirl pot goes back to the tank there should never be any pressure in the swirl pot

One thing to remember is to make sure your pumps are sized correctly

The LP ones should be a higher GPM unit than the HP

Scanario
Long downhill
Low pressure pump sucking air so engine utilises some of the fuel in the swirl

Get to level area and floor the car
Your LP pump not only has to supply enough fuel for the engine to run but also have excess capacity to refill the swirl

Ian
 
Pump sizing is also dependant upon how you plumb your return.

Kinsler often recommend plumbing the return back to the swirl pot, in which case the low pressure pumps only need to supply enough fuel to support the power rating of your engine + a little spare. The fuel in the swirl pot will gradually warm a bit though because running repeatedly through the fuel rails above the hot engine will warm it slightly - esp when idling.

If the return is plumbed back to the main fuel tank(s) - then the LP pump(s) will need to supply the capacity of the high pressure pump flow rate + a little extra. Otherwise the HP pump will empty the swirl pot faster than the LP pump will fill it.

SO - if you stick a whopping great Aeromotive HP pump and plumb back to tank - just make sure your LP pumps will keep it fed.....:thumbsup:
 
Gents, Too early for the book store to open - hoping to find a copy of EFI For Dummies!

Besides filters, and a pressure regulator after the EFI, what am I missing from the following design? Would this work - one LP pump drawing simultaneously from each tank, feed the swirl pot, gravity feed to the HP pump, return from EFI to swirl pot, overflow from swirl pot to fuel tanks simultaneously? I think my only absolute is that the supply/return line length from the LP pump/swirl pot to the tanks needs to be the same so the feed is equal (would I have more resistance in a longer line?). If I filled the tanks at the same time and drew from the tanks at the same time, would I use fuel at a balanced rate? Is there a possibility of overfilling one of the tanks this way?

Inputs please! Thanks.
 

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I frequently find myself... talking to myself (In an Austin Powers kind of way!). This forum is very thought provoking for me - thanks all.

After reading about the fuel cell slosh, downhill, braking, etc. And seeing the flapper door setup earlier, I've decided fuel cell foam is the way to go on that.

Also, along with the pickup tube in the fuel tank(s), I will place the return line adjacent to the pickup tube, and they can both sit in a small (enough to get into the access hole) container with a one way flapper door (oriented toward the front so it would close under braking or downhill) that would allow fuel in the tank to migrate into the area normally, and would also mostly contain a lot of the return fuel to be immediately used by the pickup tube. This is a miniature version of wbmusarra has shown in his tank.

Is this overkill! Thoughts? Thanks,
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Doug
Your system would work fine

But
Cross over from both tanks would need to be about 1 inch diameter thus connecting both tanks together by about a 1 inch pipe. (Allow fuel draw to engine and also rebalance any difference in tank levels
You could then return purely to one tank as the cross over / feed pipe would allow both tanks to always be same level.

Bad point is that by linking the tanks together would mean drawing fuel and having the outlet at the bottom of the tank (Better to draw from the top as if you rip a hose off - the tank will not empty it's contents on the floor)

That said if you can do the cross over pipe out of harm's way it is certainly simple

Ian
 
Ian, Thanks for the response and support! Your technical advice as well as the confidence you inspire is greatly appreciated.

BTW, what size lines would be recommended for supply/return? My objective is a ~400h.p. 302, with the EFI of some flavour. Thanks again.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
I placed a carbed regulator (2-4 lb) in the return line from the top of the swirl pot back to the fuel tank. The purpose of this was more for diagnostic use as an indicator of LP pump function. If my LP pump(s) failed, the swirl pot pressure would drop to zero, and with appropriate alarming, give me a minute or so of fuel to react before the pot goes dry. If my LP pump is of insufficient size or not operating at proper capacity, the pressure may drop off midway through a long pull, but will recover in braking.
 
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