F1 Madness

[ QUOTE ]
FIA WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL
20.06.2005

Further to events at the 2005 United States Grand Prix, representatives of the seven Michelin teams have been summoned to a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council to be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29, 2005.



[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt the FIA are trying to wash their hands of this farce, but they are not doing a great job.

I heard Max Mosley talking in an interview today. Mosley expects to see the 7 Michelin teams fined by the FIA for pulling out of the USGP, despite all parties agreeing that this was a major safety issue beyond the teams' control. He believes that the Michelin racers should have slowed down every lap (causing safety problems when the Ferraris come barrelling up behind - and further safety issues during dices between the Michelin racers pushing these tyres to unknown limits).

IMHO, Mosley then made himself look even more foolish, stating that the 7 Michelin race teams should refund the 120,000 spectators. Err ... what?

If the FIA blames the teams before blaming Michelin (who should have provides a second lower performance tyre to each team as part of the rules) that says it all.

If the FIA fines the teams for putting safety first, then that would be the biggest farce of all. It once again questions the future of F1 under the current regime.

Bring back racing.

My 2 cents.

 

[Allan Feldman]

FIA are indecisive and incompedent. They fiddle while Rome burns it was their meddling with the rules that brought about this farce. This just proves that F1 is not a sport but is purely and simply money orienated. Michelin should be fined for not having a plan B after letting the teams qualify?
And Minardi, Ferrari and Jordon should have shown soildarity and pulled out for safety reasons of the other teams. Then at least the fans could get their money back! As it is now while every one is blaming the other. A farcial race was run and this will be the leverage for no refund from FIA the Teams or Indinapolis.
Regards Allan

 

[Steve Toner]

Indianapolis 500 = "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing"
Indianapolis USGP = The Greatest Debacle in Racing? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

The real farce is that very, very highly paid, so called "adult" people had at least a couple of days to solve the problem and could not do so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
"Incompetant" is a word that springs to mind. Back to MotoGP for me.

P.S. Not good that Bernie was heard over the nearby mike shouting "I don't care".

 

Really quite interesting sitting in the stands as all this came about. Most people had no idea what was happening, and the race announcers did not say one word prior to the start of the race. We had brought a laptop to the race and were able to stay abreast of the situation via wireless internet. It was by far the most interesting race of the season.

Turn this one around; if the six Bridgestone runners had decided not run if their tires were no good, would anyone have cared? Michelin's stock dropped 2.5% this morning, as well it should. I can say I love the Michelin tires on my truck, but will never buy another set of Michelins. They have been coming to the same track for years, and they got this one very wrong. David Coulthard had perhaps the best comments.

Dock all Michelin runners their points so far!

This could very well be the end of F1 in the US.

 

[John W]

Pat,
you make an interesting point.
I wonder just how this will affect michelin sales. Something tells me this will hurt them more than anyone else for a long time to come...

 

[roaldin]

I'd said pretty much all I have to say about F1 in another thread and was trying to hold my tongue, but I can't help commenting about the Michelin thing.

I disagree with the above and think it's a bit reactionary. Imagine how hard it was to do what Michelin did. I think it's obvious they made a big mistake but they put safety before business and in my book that's worth congratulating.
I will continue to use Michelin where applicable, happy in the knowledge that they take safety and performance VERY seriously. (not affiliated blah blah)

Ferrari are just doing their job: to take advantage of opportunity whenever and wherever it appears in order to win races/points. It would be nice if they looked at the bigger picture sometimes but I don't blame them.
Drivers and teams I don't blame.
Michelin made a huge mistake but did the right thing IMO. Lives are worth more than any of the rest of it.
I believe that the blame for the destruction of F1 (and similarly in other areas of motorsport) lies with the business/political mentality of the organisations behind F1. Their press releases, I feel, are about as creditworthy as a politicians word.
Bureaucracies kill sport - and fun in general.
When Italians (Paul) start to lose interest in F1, you know it's in serious trouble.
FWIW I think two better options were to run it with the chicane (FIA's point has validity but I don't think it would have been such a big deal), possibly without championship points; or call it off, refund (it's been done before I understand) and maybe run later if possible.
The line about Michelin shod cars being driven slowly around the bend is laughable and I think it's unbelievable that the FIA took it seriously.

BTW I was wondering how long it would be before someone had a go at the French.

Personally, I'd be happy having a (decent) Formula 1 World Championship without the Americans, just as I am about them having a Baseball World Championship without the rest of us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Tim.

 

Tim, well put, I could hardly agree more with your points. I do think Ferrari were predictably short sighted but maybe that's why they have won so many championships recently at the cost of some spectators. And just maybe do it again this year now?? Michelin maybe forced to be more conservative as Bridgestone were.

Interviewed, Jean Todt said he wasn't asked about a chicane although then immediately corrected himself by saying Bernie mentioned it but he wouldn't have agreed anyway! The same type of excuse as having a hair appointment or something so he couldn't attend the meeting about limiting testing last year.

The problem is the inflexibility of the FIA and taking their safest option which was to stick exactly to the 'rules' and bugger the American public!!

Being of a certain age now I regret the dilution of the older circuits by the likes of China, Turkey, Malaysia etc - Spa, Monaco, Osterreichring are much more interesting. The sad thing is that Indianapolis is about the only interesting US circuit we have had in my memroy - lets please not go back to Caesars Palace Car park with concrete slabs to mark out the circuit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[ChrisL]

How extraordinary that the FAI should totally misunderstand their own sport. This sport is founded on leading edge technology and as such uses untried components (including tyres) by definition. If the FAI had a clear understanding of that principle and its implications, then they (and not the teams) should have had a backup plan in their rules to allow for such a situation.

The FAI knew the percentage of cars that were running on a single tyre brand and should have known that there was a chance that a common problem could have afflicted all Michelin teams as a result. But did they have a backup plan in the rules for this possibility? No, none, zilch, naught!

The bottom line is that there were a series of unforeseen events that had lead to this one point. The race organizers did not select the track in the knowledge that tyres were likely to fail, the FAI did not design the rules in the knowledge that it would cause such a situation, and the tyre manufacturer did not deliberately design a tyre that would not stand the conditions. These facts only became known during this race meeting. However, the FAI then obstinately refused to change their stand in full knowledge (by this time) of its likely effect. This was the one and only point at which a deliberate decision was made in the full knowledge that this scenario was likely to develop.

Just finally, I have supported F1 on these forums long and hard and even looked past many of their failings on the basis that they are breaking new ground and bound to make the odd mistake. This latest situation however has embarrassed my past efforts to defend their decisions and am consequently unapologetically furious about it.

PS. The local media reported that the Michelin teams were happy to race for no points if a chicane was to be installed. All Bridgestone teams agreed except Ferrari. FAI should have overruled Ferrari and dealt with the (relatively) minor ramifications later. A previous question was raised as to why a team would race for no points. The reason is to satisfy their sponsors, fans and to further their development.

 

[David Morton]

Very sad events in Indy.I was located in the IRL buildings
on the opposite side of 16th Street. What also seemed to transpire was a fear of massive litigation in the event of any member of the public being injured.
Toyota's tyres were the catalyst and the tyres were delaminating - this was also discovered on other teams cars as well, though they hadn't quite gone as far. Ferrari were certainly intransigent and would not accept any changes to the circuit. I'm not sure if Jordan and Minardi were similarly minded. Michelin issued the statement on Saturday , which they reiterated again on Sunday morning, Surely the FIA could have done something, ie salvaged something to give a show to the many people who came from far and wide.
Part of the problem was that the main surface of the speedway had been replaced and then diamond cut which is apparently a normal procedure at the Speedway. The big problem was turn 13 (turn 1 normally) where the high loading was occuring which is where the chicane would have been placed if Ferrrari had agreed.
When the season is done, and if Schumacher is jsut ahead on points, sure everybody will point to Indianaplois and say it was a hollow victory, but in ,say, five years time everybody will have forgotten but the recaord books will still show it. Sad really.
I wish it had been raining all day, and the race was wet throughout. All of this would have been avoided and the paying public would have had a race. From about 1330 hrs the whole area looked as though it was becoming extremely ugly when the SWAT gangs arrived. The IRL buildings and the Bombardier Tower were both targets of the anger felt by the public.
I doubt F1 will recover it's already struggling reputation
in the USA and I would very much doubt if Tony George will ever entertain Ecclestone again, particularly after some of the comments Ecclestone made over the weekend.
DM.

 

FIA - letters to team bosses

Message from the FIA today:

<< WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL

It has been brought to our attention that extracts from the document summoning the seven Michelin teams to the FIA World Motor Sport Council have reached some members of the Press.

In the interests of transparency we have therefore decided to publish the charges faced by each team in their entirety.

To read the charges faced by each team please click here >>

 

[Chris P.]

I've got two things:

1) Firetrucks. Lots of them. Keep the whole track wet and make everyone race on wets. Just kidding - couldn't be done, but neat idea.

2) So what? Now, granted, I haven't watched F1 in almost eight years because I just don't watch TV anymore, but the main thing that I liked about F1 was that, at least compared to American racing, it didn't always seem like most of the governing body's decisions were based on audience approval and attendance. If that were the case, then they would scrap the proprietary car rules and make them go to a short list of manufactured cars like in America. F1 has always been it's own animal in a way that you can only expect these types of situations. I suppose the fans that bought tickets would be rightfully upset, but I don't think I would be if I watched at home - situations like this just add to the overall drama of F1 for me. I tend to look at the whole picture, not each race individually.

In my opinion, if anyone is going to be fined, it should be Michelin, but certainly not the teams. If they are going to expect the teams to endanger their drivers for the crowds sake, then take out flat bottoms, put wider tires back in, and a list of other things that could do the same. If the drivers don't want to drive because of a safety issue, then why is that a big deal all of a sudden? Have they already forgotten Jackie Stewart?

I agree the way the whole thing went down is a farce, but the fact that they started with only something like 7 cars is what makes F1 interesting to me...

(I still can't believe what I have been reading - that they actually asked the teams to DRIVE SLOWLY. Will I be waking up soon or something???)

 

[Mark Worthington]

[ QUOTE ]
The FAI knew the percentage of cars that were running on a single tyre brand and should have known that there was a chance that a common problem could have afflicted all Michelin teams as a result. But did they have a backup plan in the rules for this possibility? No, none, zilch, naught!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm amazed at the fact that I'm defending the FAI, who came up with the ridiculous one-set-of-tires rule in the first place and who seem to be doing their best to turn F1 into a spec series. But how could this fiasco possibly be laid at FAI's feet? Michelin made defective tires. The teams opted not to test the tires at Indy. The teams opted not to bring backup (sturdier) tires. The teams had the option of racing and making a valid argument that they needed to pit and change tires for safety reasons, thereby avoiding penalties (aside from the time penalty multiple pit stops would've required). The FAI simply followed its own rules by denying the 11th-hour (literally) request to design and construct a chicane. If safety is such a paramount interst (which it should be), then the addition of a chicane at T13 would have been one of the most unsafe things FAI or IMS could have done.

Michelin is already touting "safety" as a smokescreen for their incompetence. Their screw up has done serious damage not just to F1, but to any form of motorsports that depends on sponsoship. Yeah, they'll probably pay somebody off, and they're finished as far as F1 is concerned, but there are a lot of racers and teams out there who are now dealing with frightened sponsors who may well decide that the risk of sponsorship simply exceeds the potential benefits.

 

[Mitch D]

Interesting thread so far, but I think some people are doing too much analysis. This seems simple enough - Michelin screwed the pooch. As said on this thread already - they (and other tire manufacturers and all the teams) knew the rules well before last friday when the first trouble arose. In addition to the rules, the track design was no surprise either - any talk of changing it to make drivers slow down was just rubbish.

I'm glad I watched the US Open (golf) instead. At least it was a genuine competition with all players going at it on the same course. The USGA certainly didn't think about making the hole bigger to level the playing field for those that would likely shoot higher scores!!

Bottom line - it's not the ruling body that blew it in Indianappolis, it's Michelin. Unfortunate for the teams that chose them, but true none-the-less. From Pat's msg, I like Coulthard's comments too - for the non-participating teams, dock all the points from the season thus far. Ha!

Mitch D

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

A very smart person once said. "Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and to be followed to the letter by bloody idiots." In this instance I think the idiots prevailed.

 

[Dan W]

Some previous good comments guys. My main thoughts are :
1. How many times in the past few years have the rules been changed during the season , over and over again.
2. The one set of tires rules should have never been implemented at all this season. They were just asking for trouble and we are lucky no one has been badly hurt or killed. As stated in others post many drivers have had trouble on either brand of tires.
3. (wishful thinking) I wish the minardi's and jordan cars would have followed everone else in and just left the Ferarris. The perfect cream would have been they take each other out in turn one . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
4. If you went to the race and can make it to Cleveland this weekend you can exchange your ticket stubs even up for the Champcar race , speed gt races, atlantics and i think trans-ams and ff2000 will be running also.

 

[Bill Hara]

I'd be interested to hear Dave Morton's thoughts on this matter, as he usually has an ear very close to the ground in F1 matters. I have the feeling there is a lot more to this.
I can only presume that F1 as it now stands is not a sport but a business based around sport and as such if they (FIA) make a business decision that has an adverse effect on the business, then they deserve whatever they get. If other groups with a vested interest cause the FIA to show all the world its ineptitude in running the sport, then it is probably happening for a reason.
Smells very much like death (of the FIA) to me....

 

[John W]

Mark, I don't think anyone is trying to lay the entire blame at the FIA's feet, but they were part of the problem, and were not prepared to allow anything outside the rules to allow the team to race. As I said above I don't think the other options were sensible.
As it happens I think if the teams had raced by whatever means, we would now be discussing some other issue about this, probably about how the teams were allowed to race by changing the rules / circuit layout !

Imo the teams and michelin put safety first. The FIA put their rule book first, and to hell with all the paying members of the public who were the real losers in all this.

I like the way the wording of the FIA letters fully blame the teams for being in breach of the rules. I bet they fine / penalise them too (lets not forget they've all dropped an events worth of points anyway).
If I was one of those teams I'd be inclined to tell FIA to shove their championship. If all the teams were to do that (again in solidarity) that trully would be the end for the FIA F1 championship.
Of course I doubt they'll do this as I fully exect the teams have had to sign a contract for the season with the FIA, and would therefore be in breach of contract too...

I'm done now. Time to sit back and see what happens /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[David Morton]

One other thread in this complicated tale : If a team fails to make the grid, they forfeit around $100,000 per car.
This was evident in Interlagos with Simtek Ford in I think 1995 after Mimi Scaterella crashed on the Saturday practise and Jos Verstappen had some other problem. The spares were in Banbury instead of in the packhorse boxes and they were going to pack up and drive south to Buenos Aires and pay the fine until it became evident the spares could be put on the overnight jumbo by hand of crew and then helicoptered into Interlagos. They missed morning warm-up but made the grid and avoided the fine (times 2).
At Indy this last weekend, interestingly all the Michelin shod cars made the grid, although this is a small amount in comparison to the cost of attending this flyaway (maybe in the region of $10 to $12m or more)
Again, I would refer to my previous posting - fear of litigation must have been uppermost in most of the Michelin shod teams - espescially in open wheel cars at high speed in turn 13 where just about everybody was taking it just a shade under not lifting. If Schumakers accident occurred in the race and had involved another car as well, open wheel cars can go anywhere, especially if inverted.
(Marcel Albers F3 fatal accident at Thruxton in 1992 was an example of just that, where he touched Elton Julians car , inverted and flew for a considerable distance [some at the inquest estimated the height at 15ft or more] before the car broke up on the catch fence and some debris went into the crowd with petrol vapour everywhere - and injured spectators ). All very sad and I'm reasonably sure this sort of accident would have influenced Michelin at Indy.
DM

 

[Gary Gibbs]

What speed do the F1 teams run through that corner. Maybe 170 mph? They are at ~210 mph at the end of the straight. IRL runs 228 mph average for the lap (233 in 1992). I would guess IRL runs through the same turn at ~40 mph faster. They wreck. The fans have been to date safe.

They should have come up with a way to put on a race (points or not). F1 will pay for this..... dearly. Fans in the US like to watch a race not a pissing match.