F1 Madness

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Gary, Everything you say is true and if Sundays decision was simply left to the lawyers, there would have been a race. Max Mosley got involved and it went from bad to
f-----g bad in one swoop.
About Indy cars, they are totally set up for the G loading and the 9 degree banking and the rear tyres are I/2" bigger on the outside as they dont run with a diff (virtuallly a locked solid rear axle). When you look at an Indy car on pit lane it slopes to the left (about 2 degrees) as its set up with +ve camber on the outside so that the car wants to roll level and the tyres to run as perpendicular as possible in the 9 degree banked corners.
I agree with the general premise of your comments but I feel the two cars cannot be compared in a similar vane.
The F1 cars do not really use the banking anyway as they run very close to the inside all the way around turn 13 (very dusty normally) and after the apex they then go flat and take to the left side.
And why would the lawyers have agreeed ? because it lines their pockets even further.
Who will accept responsibility for Sunday? Probably it will be Michelin in the end.
Incidentally, apparently people were queing on the Monday for tickets for the 2006 USGP. Unbelievable but true.
DM
 
Hi All

Paul Stoddart has made some very interesting observations:-

http://www.crash.net/uk/en/feature_view.asp?cid=1&fid=7686

Typical Aussie eh! No mincing words here!!

As all the "naughty boy" Michelin teams have been hauled up before the headmaster for a good spanking and will probably have their pocket money confiscated I expect further fall out from this. What is the betting that the French Grand Prix goes ahead, then everything gets nasty resulting in the British Grand Prix being cancelled because no teams are prepared to turn up. Mosely would like nothing more, he's been trying to get the British race cancelled for years.
Regards
Dave Tickle
 
[ QUOTE ]
But how could this fiasco possibly be laid at FAI's feet? Michelin made defective tires. The teams opted not to test the tires at Indy. The teams opted not to bring backup (sturdier) tires. The teams had the option of racing and making a valid argument that they needed to pit and change tires for safety reasons, thereby avoiding penalties

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the fault cannot be laid totally at the feet of the FAI. However, it is the FAI's responsibility to structure a rule system that is robust in all circumstances. Anything less than this is a sign of incompetence.


As for Michelin being at fault... yes absolutely, but only in as far as it introduced an unintended design fault. Surely it can't be said that Michelin deliberately brought a tyre that it knew was not "sturdy"??? In their minds, they DID bring the sturdy tyers. I'm not sure why but as a society we seem to have lost touch with the realities of engineering. Somehow we have come to believe that engineers have the ability to build anything to any standard first time every time without fear of failure. This type of thinking is what led to the rules that we see now. The FAI however should have known better.

As for the teams avoiding penalties for replacing tyres every ten laps on safety grounds, this was definitely not a known commodity. It would have been at the discretion of the officials after the event, and I doubt very much that tyre wear would have ever been accepted as a valid argument. Accepting it would have totally nullified the whole "one tyre" rule.
 
Me again!!

Sorry, the link in my previous reply no longer works. Use the link, then click on Formula 1 Home then under Latest Features click on "Stoddart: What really happened at Indy"

It is worth reading!

Regards
Dave
 
I think that Martin Brundles on grid commentary on live prime time TV, and his suggestion to Mrs Ecclestone that she should take Mr Ecclestone home and give him a "good slapping" was the best live television I have seen for a long time !
 
Paul Stodart's text - for easier reaading.

Much has been said about the 'farce' that occurred on Sunday at Indianapolis, and Minardi team boss Paul Stoddart - a Bridgestone runner - has decided that, in the interests of transparency, it would be worthwhile for someone who was actually present, and participated in the discussions leading up to the start of the grand prix, to provide 'a truthful account' of what took place - both for the 100,000-plus fans who were present, and for the hundreds of millions of people watching on television around the world.

"While this is a genuine attempt to provide a factual timeline of the relevant events that took place, should any minor detail or sequence be disputed, it will not, in my opinion, affect in any way this account of events that led up to arguably the most damaging spectacle in the recent history of Formula One," the outspoken Aussie wrote in a statement distributed to the world's media.

"For those who have not followed the recent political developments in Formula One, it is fair to say that, for over a year now, the majority of teams have felt at odds with the actions of the FIA and its president concerning the regulations, and the way in which those regulations have been introduced, or are proposed to be introduced," Stoddart continued.

"Not a weekend has gone by where some, or all, of the teams are not discussing or disputing these regulations. This is so much the case that it is common knowledge that the manufacturers have proposed their own series commencing in January 2008, and this [proposal] is supported by at least two of the independent teams. The general perception is that, in many instances, these issues have become personal, and it is my opinion that was a serious contributory factor to the failure to find a solution that would have allowed all 20 cars to compete in Sunday?s United States Grand Prix."

Having provided the background to his version of events, Stoddart goes on to recall, blow-by-blow, what happened between free practice on Friday, when the first tyre problems emerged, and the start of the race on Sunday, when the seven Michelin-shod teams peeled back into the pits at the end of the formation lap.

"I noticed that Ricardo Zonta?s Toyota had stopped but, in all honesty, did not pay any attention to the reasons why," he revealed, "However, I actually witnessed Ralf Schumacher?s accident, both on the monitors, and more significantly, I could see what took place from my position on the pit wall. This necessitated a red flag and, in the numerous replays on the monitors, it looked very much like the cause of the accident was a punctured rear tyre.

"Throughout the afternoon, numerous people in the paddock suggested it was a tyre failure and commented that it was similar to the serious accident which befell Ralf Schumacher during the 2004 US Grand Prix. Later that evening was the first time I was aware of a potential problem with the Michelin tyres at this event. In all honesty, I didn?t pay a great deal of attention, as our team is on Bridgestones.

"On arriving at the circuit on Saturday, the word throughout the paddock was that there was a potential problem with the rear tyres supplied to all Michelin teams for this event, and it became evident as the first and second sessions were run that most of the affected teams were being very conservative with the amount of on-track running they were doing.

"In addition, Toyota announced that it had substituted Ricardo Zonta for Ralf Schumacher, who would take no further part in the event. Speculation was rife in the paddock that some Michelin teams might not take part in qualifying and, also during the practice session, I was informed there would be a team principals? meeting with Bernie Ecclestone at 1430hrs - after qualifying - which I incorrectly assumed would centre around the Michelin issue.

"Qualifying took place, and indeed, all 20 cars qualified for Sunday?s grand prix.

"At approximately 1420hrs, I attended Bernie?s office and, with representatives present from all other teams - including Ferrari - the meeting commenced. Surprisingly, the main topic of conversation was the number of events and calendar for 2006, followed by a suggestion that a meeting be convened at the next grand prix to discuss two issues only ? firstly, a proposal for a single-tyre supplier in Formula One, and secondly, whether or not it would be desirable to qualify with or without a race fuel load in 2006.

"Only at the very end of the meeting did the Michelin tyre issue arise and, in fairness, it was not discussed in any great detail. I personally found this strange but, as I have stated, it did not affect Minardi directly, and therefore I had no reason to pursue the matter.

"Throughout Saturday evening, there was considerable speculation in the paddock that the tyre issue was much more serious than at first thought, and people were talking about a fresh shipment of tyres being flown overnight from France, and what penalty the Michelin teams would take should those tyres be used. By the time I left the paddock, people were taking bets on Minardi and Jordan scoring points!

"Later that evening, I checked with our sporting director on what developments had occurred, and was told that the issue was indeed very serious, and the possibility existed that the Michelin teams would not take part in the race.

"I arrived at the circuit at 0815hrs on Sunday, only to find the paddock was buzzing with stories suggesting the Michelin teams would be unable to take part in the grand prix. I was then handed a copy of correspondence between Michelin, the FIA, and the Michelin teams that revealed the true extent of the problem. By now, journalists were asking if Minardi would agree to a variation of the regulations to allow the Michelin teams to compete, and what penalties I felt would be appropriate.


"A planned Minardi press briefing took place at 0930hrs and, as it was ending, I was summoned to an urgent meeting, along with Jordan, with Bernie Ecclestone, the two most senior Michelin representatives present at the circuit, IMS president Tony George, team principals and technical representatives from the Michelin teams.

"At this meeting, Michelin, to its credit, admitted that the tyres available were unable to complete a race distance around the Indianapolis circuit without a change to the track configuration, so as to reduce the speed coming out of the last turn onto the banking. Much background information was provided as to the enormous efforts that Michelin, with support from its teams, had undertaken in the preceding 48 hours to try and resolve the problem, but it was clear that all those efforts had failed to produce a suitable solution that wouldn?t involve support from the non-Michelin teams, and ultimately, the FIA.

"What was requested of the Bridgestone teams was to allow a chicane to be constructed at turn 13, which would then allow Michelin to advise their teams that, in their opinion, the tyres would be able to complete the race distance. It was made very clear that this was the only viable option available, as previous suggestions from the FIA, such as speed-limiting the Michelin cars through turn 13, could, and probably would, give rise to a monumental accident. This idea, as well as one concerning the possibility of pit-stops every ten laps, were dismissed, and discussion returned to the only sensible solution ? a chicane.

"During this discussion, a technical representative with specific knowledge of the Indianapolis circuit, together with representatives from IMS, were tasked with preparing the design of a chicane, and Bernie Ecclestone agreed to speak with the one team principal not present - Mr Todt - and to inform the FIA president, Max Mosley, who was not present at Indianapolis, of the planned solution to allow the successful running of the US Grand Prix. With only a few hours now remaining to the start of the race, we agreed to reconvene as soon as Bernie had responses from Messrs Todt and Mosley.

At approximately 1055hrs, Bernie informed us that, not only would Mr Todt not agree, stating that it was not a Ferrari problem but an FIA and a Michelin problem, but also Mr Mosley had stated that, if any attempts were made to alter the circuit, he would cancel the grand prix forthwith. These words had a familiar tone to me, as they were similar to those I had heard around midnight on the Friday preceding the 2005 Australian Grand Prix, when I was told by all the senior FIA representatives present that the Australian Grand Prix would be 'cancelled forthwith' if I did not withdraw pending legal action between Minardi and the FIA. Once again, Mr Mosley was not present at that grand prix!

"It is fair to say at this point that the vast majority of people present in the room both felt and stated that Mr Mosley had completely overstepped the mark, had no idea whatsoever of the gravity of the situation and, furthermore, cared even less about the US Grand Prix, its organisers, the fans, and indeed, the hundreds of millions of television viewers around the world who were going to be affected by his intransigence.

"By this time, the nine teams had discussed running a non-championship race, or a race in which the Michelin teams could not score points, and even a race whereby only the Michelin teams used the new chicane, and indeed, every other possible option that would allow 20 cars to participate and put on a show, thereby not causing the enormous damage to Formula One that all those present knew would otherwise occur.


"By now, most present felt the only option was to install the chicane and race, if necessary, without Ferrari, but with 18 cars, in what would undoubtedly be a non-championship race. We discussed with Bernie the effects of the FIA withdrawing its staff, and agreed among ourselves a race director, a safety car driver, and other essential positions, and all agreed that, under the circumstances, what was of paramount importance was that the race must go ahead. All further agreed that since we would most likely be denied FIA facilities, such as scales and post-race scrutineering, every competitor would instruct his team and drivers to conduct themselves in the spirit of providing an entertaining race for the good of Formula One.

"At this point, we called for all 20 drivers, and indeed, all 20 arrived, at which point we informed them of our plan. While I cannot testify that each and every driver agreed with what we were proposing, what I can say with certainty is that no driver disagreed, and indeed, members of the Grand Prix Drivers? Association discussed overseeing the construction of a suitable chicane. Jean Todt was the only significant team individual not present, and the Ferrari drivers stated this decision was up to Mr Todt.

"I feel it is important to stress that, at this stage, and mindful of the total impossibility ? call it force majeure if you wish ? of 14 cars being able to compete in the race, the nine teams represented agreed they would not take part in the race unless a solution was found in the interests of Formula One as a global sport, as it was clear to all present that the sport, and not the politics, had to prevail if we were to avoid an impending disaster.

"After a short break, we reconvened without the drivers. When I arrived in Bernie?s office, Flavio Briatore was on the telephone to Mr Mosley, and it was quite clear from the body language of the others gathered in the room that Mr Mosley was having none of our suggestions. At the conclusion of the telephone call, it was obvious that many of those in the room had lost all faith in Mr Mosley and his ability to perform his function as president of the FIA in respect of Formula One matters.

"I?m sure this sentence will be treated with contempt by Mr Mosley, but what must be realised is that there are various reasons that other team principals, and the most senior people in Formula One, will not say publicly what they openly feel privately about Mr Mosley, his politics and his governance of the sport. There is a great temptation to go into those reasons in detail, but that is for another day. Suffice to say, those gathered at Indianapolis felt Mr Mosley, and to a lesser degree, the lack of co-operation from Mr Todt, were about to be responsible for the greatest FIAsco in Formula One?s recent history.

"Discussions then took place concerning the other telephone calls with Mr Mosley from, among others, Bernie Ecclestone, Ron Dennis and Tony George, and it was clearly revealed to what extent Mr Mosley was prepared to go in order to achieve his aims. To my total disgust, it was stated that Mosley had informed Mr Martin, the FIA?s most senior representative in the USA, that if any kind of non-championship race was run, or any alteration made to the circuit, the US Grand Prix, and indeed, all FIA-regulated motorsport in the US, would be under threat ? again, exactly the same tactic that was used in threatening the Australian Grand Prix and Australian motorsport in March of this year.

"By now, it was evident Mosley had bullied the US Grand Prix promoter into submission, Bernie Ecclestone was powerless to intervene, and all efforts of the team principals, with the exception of Jean Todt, had failed to save the 2005 US Grand Prix.


"At this point, the pit-lane had opened and a hasty discussion took place concerning whether or not the Michelin teams would go to the grid. A radio had been delivered to me by team personnel at this stage, and I was able to know which cars were going to the grid. It is interesting to note that the Jordan team principal was not present at this time and, indeed, it was the Jordans that first proceeded to the grid, followed by the Ferraris. After discussion with Bernie Ecclestone, it was agreed the Michelin teams would go to the grid, but were absolutely prevented from participating in the race because of the tyre situation.

"We then proceeded to the grid, at which point I asked Jordan?s Colin Kolles if he intended to stand by the other teams or participate in the race. In no uncertain terms, I was told Jordan would be racing. I was also approached by a Bridgestone representative, who informed me that Bridgestone wished us to race. This left me with one of the most difficult decisions I have had to take during my time in F1, as I did not want to race but, given my current relationship with Mr Mosley, felt certain heavy sanctions would follow if I did not. I made it clear to Bernie Ecclestone, and several team principals that, if the Jordans either went off or retired, I would withdraw the Minardi cars from the race.

"It is important for people to realise that Minardi, the seven Michelin teams, Bernie Ecclestone, and the promoters did not agree with Mr Mosley?s tactics. For the reasons previously outlined, it may take some considerable time, if ever, for this to be admitted, but there is no question in my mind that the farce that occurred on Sunday 19 June 2005 at Indianapolis was the responsibility of the FIA president, Max Mosley, and compounded by the lack of support from Jean Todt.

"For the avoidance of doubt, in my opinion, Michelin was responsible enough to admit that the problem was of their creation. When one considers that even the replacement, Barcelona-specification, tyres that were shipped to IMS, when tested, apparently exhibited the same characteristics as those that originally failed, this clearly is a case of force majeure, as I do not for a moment believe that Michelin intentionally brought tyres to the event that were unsuitable for competition.

"Far more importantly, however, Mosley refused to accept any of the solutions offered, and that refusal was, I believe, politically motivated. Therefore, I feel he failed in his duty, and that is why I have called for his resignation.

"Much discussion and debate will undoubtedly take place over the coming weeks and months, but I believe this is a truthful and honest account of the facts, and not the fiction, surrounding the responsibility for this FIAsco. People can now make up their own minds!"

Paul Stoddart
20 June 2005

I did'nt see the GP - I was travelling back from Gurston Hill Climb - but what a farce!!! - GP is dead - GP2 or Thoroughbred GP makes for much better viewing....
 
Thanks for the post Paul. It does make interesting reading. I heard an interview Paul S gave on Dutch TV, during the "race", and he said pretty much the same there........with lots of expletives thrown in. Early in the interview, he alomost swore, and the reporter said "it's ok, you can swear on Dutch TV", so he really let it rip! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Max Mosley is certailny not his best mate.
 
I had intended to go to Gurston to watch the GTD guys on Sunday but was ill so had to stay home and watch 16 hours of Le Mans on Eurosport. Shame!!

Going back to the GP --- at the end of the 'race' it was announced that after the 6 drivers who raced, the others were classified in the order that they had qualified, so that means for example that Trulli will go out 7th from last in Qualifying at the next GP, Kimi 8th from last and because Coulthard was at the back of the grid he will have to out first.
Can anyone explain why this is the case?
Surely as Truli was at the head of the queue of cars which retired at the end of the warm up lap, it was HE who was the FIRST car to exit the race, Kimi second etc, and DC was the LAST to retire. So it is Truli who should be going out first, Kimi second, DC 7th from last etc. at the next GP qualifying.

No doubt it is my ignorance of F1 rules that leads me to ask this question, but I certainly don't claim to be the only ignorant person after Sundays events!
 
F1 is not Motor Sport. It is Motor Business and like any business to suceed you have to look after those who allow your business to suceed...your customers/fans/spectators,etc. In this case they were treated with contemp. Without apportioning blame,allowing this to happen and damaging a very valuable asset in this fashion was tragic. Regards
 
I question Stoddard. After all he is the one who played his sham on F1, even taking them to court when he had brought '05 spec cars to Australia. I understand his contempt for Max, (I feel the same way), but he makes it sound like Ferrari, Jordan and Bridgestone are also to blame. Screw him!
 
Okay, maybe that was a little harsh. I'll blame the cold beer for the words, but not the feelings.
 
Back briefly to David's comments. My point of bringing up IRL was not to say the cars were the same. They are very different. But playing the safety card and saying that F1 cars may wreck and have lawsuits because of fan injuries, etc. does not hold water as heavier cars go 200 laps through the same corners (4 of them in fact) at 40 mph faster and wreck often. In recent times have had many wrecks and have not injured fans.

IRL cars are setup asymmetrically and I hope that F1 would do the same if that was an advantage. I can tell you that with one particular race team that I was involved with we definitely set up road racing cars asymmetrically! We were running on a nominally CW road racing track that had mostly (many) long sweeping right hand turns. We setup the car somewhat asymmetrically in the opposite direction as normal American oval racing (CCW turns) and did very well. We did the cross weight, caster and wheel base asymmetrically, but did not do the front camber. You are sacrificing the small number ( and time) of left hand turns to do significantly better in the right had turns. I would guess the F1 guys are smart enough to figure that out. Then again most teams are getting killed on the start by Renault. Maybe the other teams should consult with Warren Johnson to learn about launches?
 
i believe the largest difference is tire stager for the 500 versus on the indy f1 track ,if you only had one r/h banked corner you would not stager , it would hurt you too much on the other turns. Also the IRL cars dont use that much downforce. The wings on the IRL car are almost a hindrence as they are set up flat and provide too much drag and down force at any bit of a angle.They are huge compared to what the old CART (pre 96) car ran. Take a look at the old pics for comparisons. I think any comparison btwn F1 and the IRL cars at that track does not hold any water.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
I don't post much, and only contribute when I think I have something substantive to say.

I grew up in the glory days of modern Formula 1, Jim Clark and Dan Gurney were two of my heroes. Watching Jackie Stewart win in a completely masterful fashion at the Glen in '73 on a glorious autumn weekend was a wonderful experience I still remember. I think the AAR Eagle and Lotus 49 (pre-GLTL colors) were the prettiest F1 cars I ever saw.

For years I have marveled at what a mess Ecclestone and Mosley have made of modern F1. However, last week's fiasco takes the cake.

I think the only hope for F1 is that the constructors take over the series and leave Bernie, Max and the FIA (and Ferrari??) to interminable meaningless discussions amongst themselves about how great they were when they were running things.

Maybe Bernie will then write a self-serving memoir, which we can all not buy.
 
It all begins to remind one of the days of Jean Marie Balestre and the Fisa/Foca wars. I recall that JMB started his presidency of the FIA in good stead but became infected by the bureacratic hauteur that is a mark of the Parisian administration. Its amusing to recall that Ecclestone's great triumph was to install his good buddy Max at the FIA; now he seems to have gone native!
Perhaps the manufacturers own series will take flight and it is all a cunning plan to sideline Ecclestone who has so far only signed Ferrari beyond 2008.

Colin Artus
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Chris

I too thought they got it wrong and the first in should be the first to retire!

Also if they had changed places (overtake p1) on the formation lap they break the law and would be black flagged so no excuses!

Then next part is possibly more contencious (SP)
The start finish line is marked on the main circuit.
This line also covers the pit lane

So anyone who ctossed this line prior to the race should be disqualified (not retired) for being out of place at the start / ahead of the start line.

I guess the legal bits on this will run and run - lost a lawyers will make lots of money!

Ian
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also the IRL cars dont use that much downforce. The wings on the IRL car are almost a hindrence as they are set up flat and provide too much drag and down force at any bit of a angle.....I think any comparison btwn F1 and the IRL cars at that track does not hold any water.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The original post was not to compare the cars, but to state the track has had little trouble with fan injuries!

However I must correct this statement. Physics would dictate that in order for a heavier car to go through the same corner at 40 mph more speed it must be making much more downforce not less!! The IRL cars could have "less wing", but when those wings are going through the air faster they can and do make more downforce as it is proportional to velocity squared.
 
Hi Gary , I think where the heavier IRL car makes up for lack of the downforce (on the wings at indy) is a agressive diffuser under the car. The set up on Kenny Bracks car during qaulifying was stated that the leading edge of the rear wing was actually higher than the trailing edge !
 
Here are two pics for wing comparisons both at indy this year. That IRL diffuser must really be working hard ! I believe a F1 car is all flat bottom and does not use a diffuser , please correct me if I'm wrong . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 

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