For all you tax and spend guys

[Mark]

I can't stop myself! Someone disconnect my router!

Employee earns £35k and pays 40% tax
Employer pays a further 12.5% on employee's behalf (NI)
Government recieves 52.5% of the employee's total earnings

If the business owner receives a salary, he may also be on 40% tax rate, (I say may!) and the same NI payments would also be due.

Whatever profit is left in the company after paying employees and Directors etc is taxed at 25% corporation tax.

If the Director is lucky to have enough left over for a dividend, then that too is taxed at between 10% and 42.5% on top (scaled against over-all earnings)

How much of my businesses turn-over ends up in the Treasury? Frankly it's F**cking depressing at times.

None of this is really conducive to encouraging entreprenuers. Can anyone tell me of a more heavily taxed country in the known universe than the UK? Seriously, I need to know that someone else somewhere is more f**cked up than the UK!

 

[Mark]

deleted

 

[Ian Anderson]

Mark

Said perfectly totally overburdened with tax

Damn it's getting back to what the Beatles sang Mr Taxman

One line goes "it's one for you and nineteen for me, 'cause I'm the taxman"
That works out at 95% tax

And Maggie's government reconed they increased tax revenue by reducing the tax rates - always makes sense and more people come clean and don't evade taxes.

Ian

 

[Mark]

You're right Ian.

It's like all those idiots you see on Ramsays Kitchen twaddle... They're all losing money, so they increase the prices! Utterly inconceivable that we have that mentality in Government.

 

[domtoni]

Thanks Mark for standing up for lower taxes. I hope some of our lefty US friends read, and understand what a social government costs.

 

[Mark]

I know we can all fall foul of 'the grass is greener syndrome', but seriously, our American cousins don't know how good they've got it.

If they'd let me in, you'd never hear me moan again, about anything, EVER. Period!

 

[Doug S.]

All this talk I hear about 'doing the right thing' and supporting the country you live in etc etc, is utter bunkum.

I seriously hate the suggestion that anyone with more than someone else should contribute more out of some kind of Moral obligation. I find that offensive, but accept it will never change.

It's the old " look at that fat cat in his Jaguar" syndrome. Jealousy disguised as moral fortitude. Sicko's.

I cringe at the thought that there are those who really feel that indignation against the greed and glutony displayed by the fat-cat cronies is any form of jealousy. One of my college friends has spent his entire life unhappy b/c he couldn't GET rich, while his brother has. He ADMIRES the rich, while I pity them for the burden with which they have been "blessed". There's no jealousy on my part, only a significant failure to understand how they could not recognize and appreciate the true blessings they have been granted....sort of like that old fable about the dog who has a bone, carrying it in his mouth, and looks down off a bridge into the water to see his reflection. Not realizing that it is only a reflection, the dog sees that the bone he's viewing is larger than the one in his mouth so he drops his bone to reach for the other one, and ends up with nothing. Why can't the wealthy recognize when enough is enough (before you begin to cry "sour grapes", I will point out that I do admire the wealthy who DO understand the "enough is enough" concept....Bill Gates is a splendid example, he is dedicating a large portion of his significant wealth to charities, recognizing that he has more than he and his progeny will ever need...i.e. that enough IS enough)?

There should never been any form of penalty levied against success. No matter how much you do or don't earn, there are many people who spend money on frivelous things.

I just don't get it guys. Help me to understand why fair can only work one way.

I have another friend who eeks by on minimum wage....constantly decrying her financial woes (which are to the point that she borrows money that she can't afford to pay back and I get a call every month from the loan company, asking me to contact her and have her call the company), yet she continues to smoke cigarettes to the tune of....what, $5 or $6 a pack (I don't know, don't have the habit). I have pointed out time and time again the fallacy of that action, yet she continues and justifies it by saying "If I don't have enough money to pay the loan company, nothing will change that, but I do have enough money to buy the cigarettes". I realize the error in that logic, believe me....yes, she does spend money on "frivolous" things like cigarettes and bingo....and I formally closed the "Bank of YerDugliness" years ago when she stiffed me on a loan. Yet, I do recognize the human needs she has and often take her food, drive her to medical appointments when she can't even buy gas, that sort of thing.

A bit of compassion for those less fortunate than yourself is not a character deficit, Mark, regardless of whether they bring it on themselves or not.

Mark, you've officially entered the "...there are none so blind as those who will not see" category. There's no helping those who don't want to be helped...so I'll cease boring you with my efforts, amigo!

...our American cousins don't know how good they've got it.

If they'd let me in, you'd never hear me moan again, about anything, EVER. Period!

Just curious, Mark....why do you think you wouldn't be welcome here? Hell, we can't seem to stop the neverending flow of ILLEGAL immigrants coming across the Rio Grande River, despite what little effort we do make, but we do have legitimate immigration quotas and a process that might well make it possible for you. If not, buy a plane ticket to Mexico (where the unemployment rate is reported to be about 5%), then wade across the Rio Grande to the U.S.A. (where the unemployment rate is reported to be above 9%). You'd never be "spotted", just don't hire one of those Mexican "Coyotes" :thumbsup: .

Cheers, Doug!

 

[Nick]

deleted

 

[Mark]

HI Doug,

I sincerely hope that I do not cause you any offence. Clearly we see things somewhat differently. My ranting bores me sometimes!

Doug, I have been poor enough to once smoke tea leaves when the tobacco ran out! I have as many frivolous habits as the next man/woman. I do have compassion and awareness that others have less than I.

I am not really refering to how one man treats another. I like to think I have helped many people less fortunate over time.

I particulary have issues with a 'national' belief that it is the sole responsibility of the wealthy to cover the costs of the not so wealthy. It is a fundamentaly flawed concept to govern a country out of financial crisis by over-taxing the very people that make the economy work. Face it, if the industrialised world taxed as hard in the 18th century as it does in the 21st, no-one would ever have built the rail-roads across your great country and Stevenson would have stayed at home rather than pressing home the idea of building an engine.

You do have a tendency in your writing Doug, to group all successful people in the same 'don't give a sh*t' catagory. Or am I reading oyu wrongly. Bill Gates isn't the first or only sucessful man to give wealth away. And he's a greedy B*start anyway. If you only kenw how many times I have to pay that man for bloody licences to use the damn software I paid for you'd be horrified! Everytime I update my darn server, there goes another bloody fortune in end user licences to Bill Bloody Gates! What a giver!

Personally I gave up trying to build my company into an empire, when I reached a level that is enough for me. What does that make me? Clever, foolish, lazy, misguided? I don't know. All I do know, is that when more than 60% of what I work hard to earn is taken away at source and then I am taxed at 20% on everything I spend, I tend to get pretty p*ssed off being considered 'Lucky'! I am in negotiations to sell some land right now. Guess who gets 40% of that sale.... you guessed it, the bloody Government! Whatever I am left with when I cash in my chips will also be taxed agin under death duty and my offspring will cop for inheritance tax at 40% also.

I can feel people as I drive by thinking, "There goes the fat tw*t in his Aston Martin"! "Greedy bast*rd"!

I am not greedy. I am not un-caring nor callous. It is not however my duty to rectify the sh*t that successive liberal govermental ideas have gotten us all into.

I'll tell you a story. True. I recently moved house. My DB9 was away for service whilst I had a new garage built. So all we had to drive at the time was my girlfiends' V8 Vantage. Imagine my horror! Poor me!! Only one car on the drive!!! Even us "rich folk" have our crosses to bear you know Anyway, I digress.

Some time later, my DB9 is returned and they take away the V8 for its service. When they finally deliver that back, a neighbour boldly walks up my driveway while I'm watering the panzies and announces how disgusted he is that I clearly have two Aston Martins! He was apparently quite cross when he thought I had traded up from a V8 to the DB9, but he simply couldn't contain his anger when he realised I owned both!

I simply smiled at him and walked away. He clearly thinks he knows me, based upon the cars I drive. Good luck to him.

You say above, "I cringe at the thought that there are those who really feel that indignation against the greed and glutony displayed by the fat-cat cronies is any form of jealousy". The sentence itself has a ring of jealousy to it. Why keep calling successful people fat cat cronies. Everyone of them greedy and glutonous.


You say, "Why can't the wealthy recognize when enough is enough". Well why can't the same be said about the not so wealthy?

You talk as though all successful people are the same. I am mildly sucessful and I don't go around calling less succesful people lazy scum-bags.

I did try to enter the US and my application was denied on the grounds that I didn't have any "unique" or sought-after qualifications. So I went to Toronto instead! I have many friends in the US. I love the place. I suppose they would let me in now, I have some dough!

 

[Nick]

All this talk I hear about 'doing the right thing' and supporting the country you live in etc etc, is utter bunkum.

I just don't get it guys. Help me to understand why fair can only work one way.

Mark,

The privileged elite high tax rate tax payers consisting of politicians, bankers, hedge fund managers, car manufacturing directors etc etc all expected the ordinary lower rate tax payers like me, to support and bail them and their businesses out when they were in trouble.

So it seems fair to me that when required I believe they should 'do the right thing'

I can't stop myself! Someone disconnect my router!

I'll agree on that point as it's time for me to do the same.

Still think if you earn more you should pay more tax and on that I am unanimous.

 

[Nick]

Whatever profit is left in the company after paying employees and Directors etc is taxed at 25% corporation tax.

If the Director is lucky to have enough left over for a dividend, then that too is taxed at between 10% and 42.5% on top (scaled against over-all earnings)

Mark,

It may have changed since I ran my small franchise business a few years ago or perhaps I just had a good accountant.

Then all you did was pay yourself the minimum wage (was around £5000 ) then a divided taxed at 20% and a small bit of corporation tax.

Strange I know but I did feel guilty about how little tax I paid for 5 years. Although I did have some explaining to do to the VAT inspector on their first visit when they realised I had claimed back VAT on my VAT payment. Luckily they acknowledged it was a genuine mistake, so no fine.

 

[Graham]

The issue here isn't that the rich pay taxes, it's that they DON'T pay taxes. They pay people to help them STOP paying taxes...

Middle England, such as it is, gets screwed over. Gord help you if you earn £100,000 per annum, because you have a huge target on your back.

If you have £10,000,000 then you're on easy street. far easier to get a good tax accountant thatn pay your share...

That is the problem. Too many loopholes / offshore facilities / non domicillary statuses etc, so the rich get richer and the poor are out of sight and out of mind, far away from the gated communities which the wealthy live in.

I sit in that £100,000 zone (give or take a few thousand), and I am royally screwed every year. I would mind a lot less if Barclays Bank paid the same percentage of Corp Tax as me, but they and many others don't even get close

Anyway, off to the pub

 

[Nick]

The issue here isn't that the rich pay taxes, it's that they DON'T pay taxes. They pay people to help them STOP paying taxes...

Middle England, such as it is, gets screwed over. Gord help you if you earn £100,000 per annum, because you have a huge target on your back.

If you have £10,000,000 then you're on easy street. far easier to get a good tax accountant thatn pay your share...

That is the problem. Too many loopholes / offshore facilities / non domicillary statuses etc, so the rich get richer and the poor are out of sight and out of mind, far away from the gated communities which the wealthy live in.

I sit in that £100,000 zone (give or take a few thousand), and I am royally screwed every year. I would mind a lot less if Barclays Bank paid the same percentage of Corp Tax as me, but they and many others don't even get close

Anyway, off to the pub

:thumbsup:

Just don't mention religion immigration sport or politics down the pub and you should be OK. I did once but I think I got away with it.

 

[Mark]

And my point is, that everyone man jack of us would be happy to pay less tax. I am not talking about Corporations on a global scale or bankers and their bonuses. I took offence at the notion that all high rate tax payers should be honored to live in a society that makes it possible to earn that much money in the first place.

I also, (no disrespect Nick) do not belive that those who earn more should be willing to pay more. Why is that fair? Those that earn more could and perhaps do feel that paying more is thier duty and that is fine. I just don't like the 'must be made to pay more' attitude.

People smuggle in tobacco to avoid paying the tax, why is that any different to finding a way to reduce your tax exposure as a person or business. Many average wage earners own shares in the companies that avoid tax, and in return, make more from their share values.

The whole situation is without answer or solution and we are all hipocrits when the sun goes down. If it is not so, then we should all agree to pay our entire sallaries into a pot to be shared out equally among one and all.

Who's up for that?

 

[Jon Briggs]

Most very high earners (1,000,000+) pay a hell of a lot less tax as a percentage of their income than high rate tax payers. They may pay a lot more tax as an amount, but as a percentage its a lot lower.

 

[Mark]

Nick, Dividends are only payable atfer the profit has been taxed. Otherwise everyone would give themselves a big fat dividend, leaving nothing left to apply corporation tax to. I wish it could be as you describe!

The single biggest boost to the UK economy would be to scrap the employers' NI contributions.

 

[Graham]

:thumbsup:

Just don't mention religion immigration sport or politics down the pub and you should be OK. I did once but I think I got away with it.

HAH, the old Fawlty Towers approach... I like it.

I don't think we're far apart in what we would like to achieve (barring religion, abortion and other fripperies). That's the funny thing. We seem to be capable of having an interesting and informed conversation, whilst our younger cousins over the pond.....

P.S. Damn, I have enjoyed a good few pints of Doom Bar, and all of a sudden the world seems a better place

 

[Graham]

Nick, Dividends are only payable atfer the profit has been taxed. Otherwise everyone would give themselves a big fat dividend, leaving nothing left to apply corporation tax to. I wish it could be as you describe!

The single biggest boost to the UK economy would be to scrap the employers' NI contributions.

Mark,

Dividends ARE profit, and hence are taxed as such. If only it worked the other way around....

 

[Mark]

LOL Graham..........you are right and therefore the money is taxed twice! Here endeth the lesson

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

LOL Graham..........you are right and therefore the money is taxed twice! Here endeth the lesson

Spot on Mark.
In Australia more than dividends are taxed twice, petrol has an excise tax and you also pay a GST (goods and services tax similar to the VAT) on top of that, from the income that you have already paid tax on. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.
As a business owner not only does my payroll get taxed, I.E. the money that I pay my people, that they pay income tax on, also attracts a State payroll tax.
I would willingly employ ten extra people and could afford to do so if it was not for payroll tax.
There are many more examples of this type of double dipping. I hate it.