I never cease to be amazed!

[Al Wohlstrom]

April of this year, our Governor Jan Brewer in Arizona signed a bill into law that would give our state government the tools to stem the flow of illegal aliens that cross our southern border. After the fact maybe, but effective I think. The bill very closely mirrors the federal bill with more language on profiling and human rights. Very simply put, if a person breaks the law, a police officer can ask for ID papers. If the person has a valid AZ drivers license, this will do. No one will be singled out walking down the street and asked for papers. This whole thing about being asked for papers is BS. Everytime a person is stopped in the US for a traffic violation, they are asked for drivers license, registration, and proof of insurance, or "papers". Here in Tucson the city council is filing suit against the state for this bill. They are using our tax dollars to file suit for a bill that 70% of the voters are in favor of. They are using tax dollars when our city deficit is at a record high, largely due to extravagant social programs and illegals in our school system at $10k each per year. California is boycotting Az. They have a deficit of $640 billion, yes billion, that is largely due to medical, social programs, and school cost for illegal aliens. Can't see the forest for the trees! We ought to rename the state Greece! Talk about an upcoming bailout! Most of the suits and marches are by people looking for notoriety and face time on local and national TV. We have bozos like Al Sharpton leading marches. We have politicians from our state on national TV asking people to boycott Arizonza and Arizona products. That would be cotton, pecans, and copper I guess.
Government and local politicians, including the president, (he stopped the building of the fence, great move) aren't wanting to make the illegals citizens for humanitarian reasons or some warm fuzzy feeling, it's for one reason and one reason only, the vote. They want to stay in office till the cows come home. If the federal government ever got it's head out of it's ass and enforced the existing federal law, I would not be pecking this out with one finger, not the one I use for the government.

 

[Garry]

+1 Al. Too many people do not get what you are pointing out and that is there is a cost to unrestrained immigration in the US. I know that many of these people want to work in the US and they do a pretty good job in that regard, but they need to get in line with a Billion others that want the same thing. I don't think anyone wants to stop immigration, but everyone wants to slow it down. We need slow it down untill we reach a stable employment wage in the industries served by illegal immigrants, primarily in the building and service sectors, where 40% of legit Americans work, or would work if it paid more money. I have a brother who is a master Electrician that has seen his wages stay flat or decrease (not just taking in inflation, but real decreases) in his hourly wages due to competition from shops that use Mexican labor, most of whom are working with false ID's. These guys will work for 12 hours a day with no overtime or breaks and work for 6 days a week, all for less money. That's great for the builders you say! However, the ugly truth is that the work is shoddy and barely meets code. I don't know about you, but I don't want some half-assed work being done on my electrical in my new home and neither should anyone with a brain. We won't even discuss the quality of plumbing these guys do.
Now before I get flamed from the left and the right thinkers on this issue, let me say that I am all for competition and fair pay for good workmanship. But let's not kid ourselves, we have all used lawn crews that use immigrant labor (Tree Trimming anyone?) and these guys were cheap. Some will complain that these crews were the only ones looking for work, but that is because they have priced the work over the last 20 years to where it is not profitable for small operators that hire, insure, have workers comp, safety gear, etc. to compete. And whatever happened to the local highschool kid that mowed lawns to make his college money in the summer? He's working at a Wall-Mart or Best Buy in the AC because he makes more money than he can net doing lawns.
What they are doing in Arizona may be extreme to some, but it has been forced upon the state to protect it's citizens from the results of a ridiculous turning of the head by the US Government with regards to Mexico and Central America's total disregard for US sovereigty. If these countries would get their act together, then millions of these immigrants would stay home. And if these immigrants would stand up and demand better solutions to their own problems in their own countries like they are demanding from the US(demonstrations anyone?) they might get the changes they deserve. For now, they are running from their problems and looking for the solutions in the US at the taxpayer's expense.



Garry

 

[Bill Musarra]

Here is the law as it is written. I would challenge anyone to tell me what is wrong with it or how it is profiling.

"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state...where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

This thing is a hullabalu. It is to stir up the feelings of the left to keep it in the news so that they can keep their base energised for the off term elections. It also is an attempt to get amenesty. Forget justice. As Al pointed out, everyone has to have proof of identity. You can't even vote without it.

Bill

 

[Ian K]

Unfortunately, "Lawful contact" can also mean when an officer is interviewing the victim of a crime and a witness to a crime. Even someone asking an officer for directions. The person need not be suspected of breaking the law. This comes from a Tuscon Police Chief as well as various lawyers and legal experts, including the AZ Republican House majority's Homeland Security research analyst (that's a mouthful). "Lawful contact" has not been defined by Arizona statute or case law. That is a big part of the problem with the wording of the law.

I am totally for improved immigration policies, both for legal and illegal situations. And, living in San Diego, this is a very important issue for me as well as those living in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

 

[Howard Jones]

Immigration Policy!!!!!!!! Are you fucking kidding???????? The Policy is, throw open the border, let them all in, make them Democrat voters, reduce the country to one party rule and control it polically forever. Period!

Don't think for one second that we don't know this. And so do you, if you're honest about it. I don't buy that your so stupid as to not know it already.

I like you, we're friends, but things are getting to the point that country comes first.

 

[Ian K]

Immigration Policy!!!!!!!! Are you fucking kidding???????? The Policy is, throw open the border, let them all in, make them Democrat voters, reduce the country to one party rule and control it polically forever. Period!

Don't think for one second that we don't know this. And so do you, if you're honest about it. I don't buy that your so stupid as to not know it already.

I like you, we're friends, but things are getting to the point that country comes first.

Howard, the demographics of the past few elections have pointed to a lot of Mexican immigrants who have gone down the legal path to gain citizenship are actually voting conservative. They may have voted for Obama in 2008 in droves, but they supported Bush pretty well in 2004.

Republicans Shouldn’t Alienate Hispanic Voters - Mona Charen - National Review Online

Ian

 

[Doug S.]

This thing is a hullabalu. It is to stir up the feelings of the left to keep it in the news so that they can keep their base energised for the off term elections. It also is an attempt to get amenesty.
Bill

I'm not sure I agree with you, Bill, and while I don't consider myself a "liberal", I'm sure I must seem like one to anyone who is what I call a "radical conservative".

As for your allegations, my goodness, the "radical conservatives" are certainly using whatever they can to stir up feelings in an effort to sway the off-term elections in their favor, so what would be so wrong for the left to do so, too? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Amnesty? I consider myself center or (perhaps) slightly left of center and I favor Arizona's bill. I have lived and worked in Texas for the past 28 years and I have witnessed an unprecedented "invasion" of our country by our less fortunate neighbors down south. These people are here illegally and even the liberals I know feel that they ought to be stopped, questioned, and deported. My friends whom I consider "liberal" also believe that the federal government is WRONG when they seem to believe that "lip service" is the only action they are required to offer in regard to stopping the flow of illegal aliens from Mexico. Both sides of the fence are saddened by the failure of the federal government to meet their constitutional obligation to protect the borders of our country....it is not a partisan political issue, it is a constitutionally stated responsibility of the federal government. As for amnesty, one of the great conservative presidents of all time was in office when the original amnesty act was approved.....Ronald Regan. It is not a "liberal" issue, it is quite simply an act of abandonmnet of sovereign responsibility--that of providing for the security of our borders. If you won't (not can't) keep 'em out, the only way "out of it" is to grant them amnesty in hopes they will become responsible citizens.

Yeah, right :thumbsdown:

What we need to do, perhaps, is just get rid of everyone currently in power (yes, heaven forbid, even the "radical conservatives") and start all over with freshman legislators. Perhaps then the politicians will see that they serve at OUR will, not theirs, and are suppose to represent OUR will, not theirs or that determined by their party leaders. Only a freshman legislator will recognize that we put 'em in office and we can take 'em out.

This "liberal" is in favor of the Arizona bill and would like to see EVERY immigrant who is here without propper authorization questioned, detained, and deported......but would much rather see the federal government meet their responsibility and protect our borders against this sort of invasion so we would not have to deal with this issue--gee, what a novel :idea: , huh?.

Doug

 

[Doc Kaler]

Illegal immigrants should have the same rights as US citizens that enter into Mexico illegally:

John W. Slagle -- Mexico's Immigration Laws and Illegal Aliens

Try to get free health care, go to a Mexican school with bilingual teachers, work at any job without a FM2 or 3 VISA (professional or otherwise).

 

[Howard Jones]

Again with the part truth. Mexicans who vote, vote 80% democrat nationally. The best BUSH did in Texas as Govenor was about 50-50. Here in California it's better than 90% and in other states it is more than that. The only latin demographic group that votes conservative is Cubin. That in itself ought to tell you something. Everybody knows recent latin arrivals vote democrat. They know who is filling the trough.

Come on admit it. We know whats going on. And if I and others get our way we are going to put a stop to it. Legal law abiding stop so as to be perfectly clear.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Unfortunately, "Lawful contact" can also mean when an officer is interviewing the victim of a crime and a witness to a crime. Even someone asking an officer for directions. The person need not be suspected of breaking the law. This comes from a Tuscon Police Chief as well as various lawyers and legal experts, including the AZ Republican House majority's Homeland Security research analyst (that's a mouthful). "Lawful contact" has not been defined by Arizona statute or case law. That is a big part of the problem with the wording of the law.

I am totally for improved immigration policies, both for legal and illegal situations. And, living in San Diego, this is a very important issue for me as well as those living in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

What is the problem, If the person is here legally, no problem. I listened to a guy on tv saying that Hispanics will be the people that are found without papers and that's profiling. What a profound statement! If our southern border was with China, I suspect that the majority of illegals would be Chinese. This political correctness is stupid. The majority of people doing terrorist acts in the US are of Arab descent, so I suspect we should watch the Irish maybe. If we live next to a Mexican border, common sense would dictate that the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants will be Mexican! Duh! If you are here legally and have to produce papers to prove that, what's the big deal? If I were Mexican I would make damn sure that I carried a valid ID. I'm here legally, thanks, goodbye. Geez that was tough! I do that every time I go to the airport thanks to our Arab friends! The cops in Az are going to be doing everything they can to avoid problems. Once again, we are doing a job that the govenment is avoiding for Hispanic votes. From what I've heard when BO speaks of the Az bill, he doesn't have a clue as to the bills content.

 

[Doug S.]

I have yet to figure out what is the bad idea if some illegal immigrants are caught.

They are criminals, after all.....why would we want them here?

I swear......some people's children!!!!

Doug

 

[Doug Clark]

Read this again:

"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state...where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

So basically anyone with a non-american accent and / or not completely caucasian in their appearance (or if a cop just want to mess with you) can now be challenged during a traffic stop or whatever to prove they're in the USA legally? This means all people in that group will need to carry thier ID with them all the time whether they are US citizens or not else thay could be thrown in the clink on suspicion until its all worked out? If it were you in that demographic you'd be pissed too. So much for liberty and freedom for all! Of course if everyone in the USA had to carry an ID card all the time you'd all go nuts at living in a police state.

Ilegals cant get legal drivers licenses, nowhere in the states as far as I know is that possible. All you need to do is take in and investigate anyone who can't produce a drivers license during a traffic stop easy which surely would happen as a matter of course seeing as you're all forced to carry them with you any way. The fact that a persons residency status cant be investigated once they're arrested or at least their info passed on to homeland security is bizarre I'll grant you & if that the case it needs fixing.

 

[Cliff Beer]

If I was illegally in some European country (I'm from the US) and was questioned by the police...then handed over to their immigrations officials and finally deported, would I be surprised at all by this handling? Nope. Would I think it's unfair? Nope. Would I feel that I had been profiled or unfairly picked on? Nope.

And why not? Because I was breaking the law - duh!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

If I was illegally in some European country (I'm from the US) and was questioned by the police...then handed over to their immigrations officials and finally deported, would I be surprised at all by this handling? Nope. Would I think it's unfair? Nope. Would I feel that I had been profiled or unfairly picked on? Nope.

And why not? Because I was breaking the law - duh!

And that is the point that everyone including this administration is making believe does not exist, THEY ARE BREAKING FEDERAL AND STATE LAWS! Not insignificant jay walking or parking violations, our Federal immigration law. They are criminals. I don't care if they want a better life, so do I, work for it, do it legally, and not a the expense of people that are working and paying taxes. Geez, if I lived in California I'd be pissed at the do gooder buttheads that are wrecking the economy.

 

[40 Bud]

Al, you are so right and as a Californian (born an raised here), I am pissed! Unfortunately for many of the last few years the buttheads have had the keys. Hopefully they will be voted out in the near future. I am not holding my breath! With San Francisco, Bezerkly and the Hollywood funny farm we have a lot to overcome!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, you are so right and as a Californian (born an raised here), I am pissed! Unfortunately for many of the last few years the buttheads have had the keys. Hopefully they will be voted out in the near future. I am not holding my breath! With San Francisco, Bezerkly and the Hollywood funny farm we have a lot to overcome!

I can't believe that the people that are pushing all of the social programs for illegal aliens and the non working can't see what they have done to a beautiful state. If something doesn't stop them, a trillion dollar deficit isn't that far away. We can't afford another bailout!

 

[Bill Musarra]

Read this again:

"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state...where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

So basically anyone with a non-american accent and / or not completely caucasian in their appearance (or if a cop just want to mess with you) can now be challenged during a traffic stop or whatever to prove they're in the USA legally?

Doug,
You didn't read it right the first time. It says "where reasonable suspicion exists". If your not doing something suspicious you haven't anything to worry about. I think that holds for "real" citizens as well.
The police have enough to do without seeking out every "possible" illegal.

"Ilegals cant get legal drivers licenses, nowhere in the states as far as I know is that possible. All you need to do is take in and investigate anyone who can't produce a drivers license during a traffic stop easy which surely would happen as a matter of course seeing as you're all forced to carry them with you any way."

Anyone visiting the U S can get a temporary license or if they have an international license can drive. Trick is you have to be visiting. As a matter of forcing someone to carry their driver's license, I don't think that is so. I would ask, who is doing the forcing?? But almost everyone I know of carries some form of I D on them because they need it. You can't do anything like buy a beer or cash a check or just about anything without one.

What you have to remember is that this country is based on the rule of law. If something is illegal, then there are consequences for tat act. You might not get caught, but if you do, you will pay.

Bill

 

[40 Bud]

Unfortunately the people who are railing against Arizona and illegal immigration in general seem to ignore the word "illegal" and seem to think the US owes a home to anyone that can get here! It seems they believe in open borders to all. I like the guy who quoted the immigration policy that Mexico has and suggested that we use the same one!!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Unfortunately the people who are railing against Arizona and illegal immigration in general seem to ignore the word "illegal" and seem to think the US owes a home to anyone that can get here! It seems they believe in open borders to all. I like the guy who quoted the immigration policy that Mexico has and suggested that we use the same one!!

2 years first offense, 10 years second offense, and the Mexican president is busting Arizona's huevos for asking for papers!

 

[Grady]

Here is the law as it is written. I would challenge anyone to tell me what is wrong with it or how it is profiling.

"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state...where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

This thing is a hullabaloo. It is to stir up the feelings of the left to keep it in the news so that they can keep their base energized for the off term elections. It also is an attempt to get amnesty. Forget justice. As Al pointed out, everyone has to have proof of identity. You can't even vote without it.

Bill

"Forget justice. As Al pointed out, everyone has to have proof of identity. You can't even vote without it."

Oh yes they can vote, ID is not required in many states to vote. North Carolina being one. What many are missing in this identity requirement discussion, is that after 9/11 under the Patriot Act, we all are required to carry a government issued ID at all times. I don't beleive it is a Mexican drivers license they are talking about.