More GT40 stuff..

Re: GT40 1079 Total Destruction

Rob and other persons, I personnaly saw the car in the 80s and it was really far from being a GT40. Franco didn't completed the car, one of his workers made it and used the Peugeot 4 cyl. engine. The current owner spent in the last years a lot of money/time to reconstruct and "re-shaped" the Sbarro chassis of this "lookalike" 1079. I also confirme the seat belt and that's why Jacky Ickx walked at the start of the 69' edition as a souvenir to Willy. The last, deeply injured in the crash at the legs, blew his own life at Ostende at 40. Sad story
Regards
 

Keith

Moderator
Re: GT40 1079 Total Destruction

I never knew that about Willy - that IS sad. Having said that, visually, I can see no continuity between these 2 cars at all. They appear to be different cars. I can see the logic and the merit in both camps but in all honesty, if there wasn't big bucks involved, would anyone be really bothered? It is probably right and proper that those that have either invested millions (or less depending on their shrewd market judgement, or even luck) and have the undoubted originals with all the history, protect their investment. It is also probably right that they would wish to preserve the heritage (+ investment) of the marque. But the thorny matter remains that certain charlatans have, and still do, capitalise on this(your) passion and exploit it with big profits guaranteed. In the classic car market, provenance is King. Remember the story of Bentley Old No. 1? If it had been a piece of junk with no history - nobody would have bothered to go to court over it. OK, I'll come clean. If I had an original GT40 with a (racing) history I would be damned if I would let some counterfeiter steal it's ID just because he "acquired" a cast off (or partially destroyed) part. The vehicles ID IS the manufacturers chassis plate. Anything else is (IMHO) counterfeit. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Sorry, rant over now.....
 
"Jim
I understand your concern, but I am worried that your tenacious focus could put people like hipperson off posting. I for one think his web pages are absolutely fascinating, and whilst being keen to hear the truth, I am also keen to hear everyone else's view of history. He likes how his old car has been restored. He isn't claiming that it is original. He is simply giving us the opportunity to have an insight into his motoring history, which happens to include an episode with a GT40 prior to being as good as destroyed, and I am very pleased he has done so. Thank you Michael. All these titbits of information give a great sense of history, and I just don't think we need reminding of the dubious history every time a chassis number is mentioned. Once is a while is fine, but it seems we can't have a single post about a car which is not totally original without a jibe about all the bits which are wrong. Rant over. There is a great selection of pictures in the 'Garden Ornaments' section."

Let's see. We're supposed to look at this photo.
Learn that with a few of Bill's spares and a tub from, in spite of Chris asking,who knows where,listen to the stated fact that this resurrection is:" Now valued at £1 million." chap politely and exclaim: "Good Show!"?

"He isn't claiming that it is original."
Then why is he claiming it's: "Now valued at £1 million." ?

ROTFLMAO
 

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Re: Total destruction

[ QUOTE ]
Here is 1079 before the Le Mans accident in 1968 and below that from the 2004 Tour Auto.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the differences I can spot between the two cars are:<ul type="square">
[*]Different colors of edging around the headlight covers.
[*]Different dzus fasteners for the bonnet.
[*]The new car has exterior mirrors.
[*]The interior mirror is of a different type and mounted in a different location.
[*]Different radiator vents in the bonnet.
[*]The canards (wings) on the nose are different.
[*]Extra side window vent on the new car.
[/list]
 
Re: Total destruction

Ben, you should have seen the car in the 80s ! It would be a 10 pages list !
This is another example of the many replicas existing. 1005 definitely died in Walther's '74 garage burn, and 1079 at the Hunaudières corner in 68. As I said, their fates were sailed. What happened in the next years is only counterfeit.
 
Re: Total destruction

[ QUOTE ]
Ben, you should have seen the car in the 80s ! It would be a 10 pages list !
This is another example of the many replicas existing. 1005 definitely died in Walther's '74 garage burn, and 1079 at the Hunaudières corner in 68. As I said, their fates were sailed. What happened in the next years is only counterfeit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree as well.
 

Lynn Larsen

Lynn Larsen
Re: Total destruction

This is a very tough issue for me and I’ll tell you why. There is a virtual continuum of cars existent today when one considers any given marque. They range from unmolested, as originally constructed examples; examples that have undergone use and, of course, had consumable parts replaced but with replacement parts produced by the owner of the marque or officially licensed suppliers; the same sort of car just described, however replacement parts are merely look-a-likes; well used vehicles where little or no consideration has been given to originality and replicas with a yet another complete continuum with respect to originality. There is certainly nothing wrong with classifying cars in this way and there is little about this that would be considered subjective. What makes this a tough issue is when people start applying completely objective terms like "better" to these subjective classifications. What makes it excruciating for owners of car in those classifications closer to the “as produced” end of the spectrum, is the monetary value placed on the classifications and, akin to that, the “bragging rights,” if you will, that go with ownership of them.

Owners of the most pristine versions of a marque are doggedly protective over their rights to claim an original example of the marque. They tend to be quite aggressive in pointing out when examples fall into the “less original” classifications shall we say. And God forbid should anyone claim or even insinuate that a replica is anything but that. And well they should, if for not other reason than to protect their own investment and, as they are very quick to point out, to protect the uneducated car buyer from being taken by some underhanded scoundrel. If truth be known, I would question what percentage of their motivation is based on the altruism. It is, unfortunately, human nature to place a value on ones self worth based on the ownership or control of possessions. If your face is getting red right now and you find yourself getting angry with me, I would ask if it is because of you think I am talking about you. Because, I don’t KNOW any of you well enough to accuse you of this, quite normal, human foible. All I ask is that you be honest with yourself, at least.

This provides me with a perfect segue for a few words for those who restore, reconstruct, resurrect or replicate a marque. If one is completely honest about the process that is used in arriving at example of the marque in question, all of those qualifiers become moot. And, unless one is trying to perpetrate a fraud, at worst, or provide ones self a higher level of self-esteem based upon a deception, at best, why wouldn’t one want to be completely open about the process. To get right down to it, if one claims that an example of a car IS a certain production chassis number, one implies some level of originality exists in that example. To make this type of claim without some explanation of the process is, indeed, a deception in my estimation. This is especially true when the unfortunate demise of the original in question is quite well documented, as is the case here.

That said, I think that sanctioning bodies like the FIA, the SVRA and any number of other vintage racing associations have perpetuated this sort of thing. Their complete exclusion, in the past, of replicas has come to bite them in their collective, pompous arses, I am afraid. With the number of original marques that the owners are willing to put on a track dwindling, their events have also dwindled in attendance and importance. Realizing this, but still finding the recognition of replicas as abhorrent, they have chosen to bend the rules from time to time. It would appear that who is asking for the rules to be bent has a LOT to do with the success of the request. The problem is that these forays from the straight and narrow do not go unnoticed. This emboldens the unscrupulous and those who just want to be a part of the celebration of a marque to attempt deception. In recognition of the increasing rarity of true original cars, I feel that the vintage associations ought to create two distinct classes for their events: one would allow for the exposition of the true original examples of the marques, which verges on idolatry for some, and another for replicas and other vehicles which pay homage to the originals, but with which the owners are willing to more truly race and put on a show for the attendees. I do hope that those who see this as a dilution of the snob appeal of vintage racing do not prevail in squelching this or any similar plans that are based on inclusion rather than exclusion.

Regards,
Lynn
 
Re: Total destruction

Lynn
The very good news is that because of the internet much more information is available and people can see for them selves what is what and make informed judgements as to whether or not they want to pay 1 million GBPS for what some are now calling P1005 should it be offered for sale.

As for Vintage racing it is a vast and varied landscape that will go on and evolve as it always has. It will range from pure replicas racing each other to 20+ real Ferrari GTO's racing each other. The notion that anyone could "squelch" any of this is absurd.
Your also wrong if you think I care either way or measure myself by what others may think about my cars. They're never being sold. There are hundreds of published pages about them in intimate detail all over the net available for all to see and argue about and as I'm never going to vintage race them what's allowed doesn't bother me either.

Shining the light into the murk of history does interest me.
If I wasn't interested in the truth of this do you think I would have been the one to prove that the car I own J6 wasn't the Le Mans winner but was the 4th Place car even though when I bought it many books and people thought it was?

Best
 
GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

Lynn and Hipperson, just in few words :
Total destruction means total reconstruction to have "another" car.
Total reconstruction means 100 % replica. The one who own these cars cannot claim their originality. They are only "1005 replica" and "1079 replica" and I really know / understand what I'm writing.
A title is not enough to make a real car. We don't need to write pages about it as the things should be very clear to everyone. For the ones it's not clear and especially the owners/builders, the money is the reason.
It's better to rebuild than let die, and what's about Willy's memory ? A real shame. Regards
 
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

There are many cars that have been crashed early on in their racing career. What would you say about a car that was totally destroyed in it's first race, a new chassis built and given the old chassis' number after which the car was raced for 20 years and retired?
Racers do not build cars from old junk. If a car is so badly destroyed they buy or build a new one.The only people interested in chassis numbers are collectors and the unscrupulous, lying, @#*%$$$$ dealers, of which there far too many. Jim's car is a perfect example of exploiting a myth that his car was the Lemans winner. Who started it and why? Certainly not the people that raced it. The winner was in Dearborn and very easy to prove, just look at the floor. Only one car was cut up to get Gurney into it.
Lynn has a very good point regarding the vintage racing arena,but I disagree with his conclusion. To replicate a car is not a cheap thing to do. $150000 to $200000 may not be a million but it is still a lot of cash. To think that people with built up cars are going to crash more often or take more risks in vintage racing is just wrong. To have 2 different races for the same cars will not happen. The weekends are way too crowded as it is and the race fans want to see a full field.At Watkins Glen I was one of 3 GT40s in the field. They are not over subscribed.
And on a last note, HSR is at the Glen June 16-19. The featured mark is GT40 and Cobras. Hope to meet some of you there.
Bill
 
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

Speaking of HSR...I heard from a little birdie (Fran)
that they will be opening a new touring class for replicas next year. Then we'll see more than (3) GT40s !

MikeD
 

Keith

Moderator
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

There is surely a distinction here. In J What's racing example, continuity is established and I'm quite sure this happens all the time. I believe there is a fundamental difference between the continuity of a car through racing incidents and a possible intent to deceive for profit, especially those whose cars have been totally destroyed as in the 2 previous examples.Would they have been "recreated" if it were not for the potential value? If this is a perfectly reasonable and proper thing to do, Chris Melia for example,(along with hundreds of others) is sitting on a gold mine. How about it Chris? Think about it...we could double the number of "legitimate" pukka GT40's over night, well over a couple of years anyway. Sounds like a descent into insanity if you ask me.If someone wants to give a million quid for 'em that only proves a fool and his money are soon parted.
 
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

That puts HSR the same weekend as F1 in Indy! Damn.
 
GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

Hallo,

I'm very surprised by the last details posted on #1005 and #1079. I had by chance both see them at Le Mans this year.

I do agree with Jim, Bill, Keith, Erik, ... their complete destruction is a fact to me and they only can be called "Replica". In my point of view it's not a problem to see them with genuines ( though it seems that they were not too many at Le Mans"). But I really think that it's not being honest to try to make them more original and find out previous owners to back that.

Actually I paid to see the history racing like 1016 or others and not replicas. These cars should be presented by the organisor as what they really are and if the owner didn't want to see on the entries list written "replica" then don't enter. About 350-400 cars were raced, I think it's enough and we could hopefully miss 3 or 4 fakes.
REPLICAs they are even if they kept from the destroyed car the title.

Regards
 
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

Now we have gone full circle on the racing issue. The reason the FIA, SVRA and others are allowing replicas, is because they can't tell which are and are not. By your standards one of these has to go. Which one, the renconstructed one or the other reconstructed one? And there are other replicas that have enough recent history and years on their reconstruction that the truth is clouded by time. Are 3 GT 40's at the Largest vintage event in this countries history too many for you?
 
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

I'm with you all the way Keith, Jim, Erik etc, etc.

J What - I'm sure time has clouded many issues and yes, that's all probably water under the bridge. The beauty of the Internet is that it makes the world a much smaller place - present and future real/replica issues should be much easier to sniff out.

Lee, I understand your earlier post but we're not talking about a new front end here or a new engine there. Yes, Sbarro's rebuild exploits of 1079 etc are covered elsewhere. However 1005 is a new discussion topic. As I understand it, we're talking about a car that has been remanufactured from scratch and a (seemingly very valuable) chassis plate riveted to it? What better place to discuss this type of thing than GT40s.com?

[ QUOTE ]
Thought provoking posts............in my opinion it is better to rebuild than let die.As to value..demand dictates that surely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Michael, I agree that demand dictates value - provided as Jim says that the full facts are made known if the car is ever put up for sale. A picture speaks a thousand words. The picture of the buried scrap iron would certainly put me off spending $1m (that's if I ever had $1m ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

As for whether it's better to 'rebuild than let die', then based on what I've seen, heard and read, 1005 died back in 1975. It is no more a rebuild than an immaculate conception...

In his bible, GT40 - An Individual History and Race Record , Ronnie Spain writes that 1005 was "totally destroyed". With a new chassis, whatever its provenance, then if Ronnie (or anyone else) ever updates the individual histories, then there's a persuasive argument that 1005's entry in the 'Chassis Record' section should NOT be updated. The chassis did not survive the fire at Salt Walther's race garage. It passed on. IMHO This GT40 is no more. It ceased to be. It expired and went to meet its maker. It's a stiff, bereft of life. It rusts in peace. If it was a parrot it would be pushing up daisies. Its internal combustion processes are now history. It's off the track. It's hit the final tyre wall, it's shuffled off its electric coil, been dug into a ditch and joined the bleedin' scrapyard invisibile. THIS IS AN EX-GT40 ... (with apologies to John Cleese, Monty Python, and the dead parrot).

Anyone paying out the sort of cash discussed would feel a tad cheated if such a book totally ignored their car's supposed chassis number after 1975?

Although it's supposition, another thought. If 1005 was insured before the fire in 1975, and the insurer paid out, then, if the chassis plate (where all the value appears to be) survived, it's possible that the insurer still has some sort of claim to the title of this car, plus accrued interest. Interesting thought ...?

By my reckoning 1005 is an expensive replica, a very nice one yes, with (as I understand it) a non-original chassis, lots of original parts from other cars, and a chassis plate which is a great conversation piece. It's a car that I would probably be very happy to own, but only for a fraction of $1m.

Rant/meanderings over.

Rob
PS If the 'new' 1005 and 1079 ARE accepted as the 'real deal' then now's the time to go digging up the hairpin at Sebring under cover of darkness in the hope of finding the chassis plate of P1000, buried there after the fatal accident in 1966. If the memory of Willy Mairesse means nothing to these 'rebuilders', then neither does that of Bob McLean.

Further rant/meanderings over.
 
Re: GT40 1079 an 1005 Total Destruction

Hi Rob,
I appreciate your message, Bob and Willy's memories mean nothing to these replica builders and I don't think it means much more to the current owners that are trying to give new histories to their cars.The problem is that at each race they make, they become a little bit more "famous" and the day they will be offered on the market they'll find an idiot to buy them.
Memories mean nothing but $$$, £££ and €€€ ... a lot.
Best regards
 
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