Multiculturalism

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Sure.

And Christians have never killed "in the name of God?" Or asked that God guide them in committing their actions?

You continue to miss the point. Ask yourself why you are singling Muslims out for being violent ....let's see.....maybe because they are different than you?

Why do the people that commit these acts say things like "Allahu Akbar", that would be a Muslim phrase of praise to Allah. Wouldn't this make it a Muslim act done by Islam believing people in the name of Allah? Is that a correct assumption?
 
I don't actually think that Jeff pulled the race card. There is a lot wrong with many organised religions in the world (and a lot of good too), Muslim, Christian, Hindu...

The Hindu's attacked the Sikh temple at Amritsar some years ago, the Muslims are happily blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, and the fundamentalist Christians are happy to strike Darwins theory of evolution from schools in favour of the preposterous creationist theory.

I believe that Jeff was trying to point out that one set of fundamentalists is as bad as another... (anyone for the Catholic faith refusing the use of condoms in Africa?). All religions contain levels of hypocrisy, and all religions think they are the one chosen by the big man upstairs.

The fact that muslims are happily blowing themselves up is disgraceful, but I do believe in general that these people are a very small majority. Where I do agree with Pete and David is that not enough normal practicing muslims come out against these events, which then fuels the belief that they should all be lumped together as radical/fundamentalist.

So lets hear it for all stupidity within religions. Any practicing Catholic on this forum want to denounce the forbidding of condom usage?

Graham.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
For fundamentlist Christians add, blow up abortion clinics, fund terrorism in Northern Ireland, commit genocide in Nigeria, etc.

Other than that, what Gravy said.
 
I don't actually think that Jeff pulled the race card. There is a lot wrong with many organised religions in the world, Muslim, Christian, Hindu...

The Hindu's attacked the Sikh temple at Amritsar some years ago, the Muslims are happily blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, and the fundamentalist Christians are happy to strike Darwins theory of evolution from schools in favour of the preposterous creationist theory.

I believe that Jeff was trying to point out that one set of fundamentalists is as bad as another... (anyone for the Catholic faith refusing the use of condoms in Africa?). All religions contain levels of hypocrisy, and all religions think they are the one chosen by the big man upstairs.

The fact that muslims are happily blowing themselves up is disgraceful, but I do believe in general that these people are a very small majority. Where I do agree with Pete and David is that not enough normal practicing muslims come out against these events, which then fuels the belief that they should all be lumped together as radical/fundamentalist.

So lets hear it for all stupidity within religions. Any practicing Catholic on this forum want to denounce the forbidding of condom usage?

Graham.

I think you've made the point well there Graham, there are problems with any grouping of people once that group start to believe some strange things about the way the universe works, you can label them Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Fundamentalist or whatever, having distorted beliefs will lead to what some would regard as distorted acts such as blowing yourself up on a bus and killing people because you believe you'll be getting a evening out with a bunch of virgins or denying life saving medical treatment to your daughter because it's against your creed or denying the use of simple contraceptive because of a piece of dogma, it all amounts to the same process but the degree and impact is different. It's my own view that religion is the cause of much ill in the world and doesn't offer too much in the way of counter balancing solace or justification.

For a better expansion of this view than I can give I would recommend reading "End of Faith" by Sam Harris. You might not like the book, you most certainly won't agree with everything in it but it makes some very interesting points.
One worth sharing is that there is a belief that the only problem elements in any religion are caused by fundamentalists. Well, it's worth considering that there would not be this problem if the fundamentals of the religion were not problematic - I am not singling out any one particular brand of religion here, all are guilty of this fault to some extent. Also, from the point of view of a religious fundamentalist, all "believers" that are not fundamentalists are failing in their belief, to a fundamentalist there is no such thing as acceptable moderation in religion, either you believe all that your religion teaches or you don't. Chrisitianity is regarded by many as a moderate religion largely because many of its adherents ignore large sections of dogma with which they are uncomfortable - there are countless exortations contained with the christian texts and dogmas that are far from "turn the other cheek", indeed the commonest penalty for transgression of religious tenet is the death penalty - thankfully not practiced too often these days but go back to the 1400's in Europe and discuss that point with the Spanish Inquisition and see how far you get with moderate religion.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
While I don't entirely disagree with that, I do think that at their core all religions have a "problem" -- they believe they are right to the exclusion of all others.

But where we have some common ground is this idea that a "modern," "moderate" religion is one that rejects the kookier core beliefs that all religions have.

I would disagree that Christianity is viewed as moderate. I think it is the same as all other religions. Peaceful Christians who know that the story of creationism is a fable, and that all non-Christians are not damned to hell or whatever and who teach and believe in the "good" things about Christianity....sure..moderates and good folks. Just like Muslim moderates who ignore some of the nonsense written in 600 A.D. about how to live your life by a warlord prophet and focus on the good in Islam.

No difference.

It's when we start trying to manufacture differences between the religions to justify our distrust of one or the other that I start to get spooked. Like with the original line of thinking in this thread.

Muslims: different: violent: bad.
 
While I don't entirely disagree with that, I do think that at their core all religions have a "problem" -- they believe they are right to the exclusion of all others.

But where we have some common ground is this idea that a "modern," "moderate" religion is one that rejects the kookier core beliefs that all religions have.

I would disagree that Christianity is viewed as moderate. I think it is the same as all other religions. Peaceful Christians who know that the story of creationism is a fable, and that all non-Christians are not damned to hell or whatever and who teach and believe in the "good" things about Christianity....sure..moderates and good folks. Just like Muslim moderates who ignore some of the nonsense written in 600 A.D. about how to live your life by a warlord prophet and focus on the good in Islam.

No difference.

It's when we start trying to manufacture differences between the religions to justify our distrust of one or the other that I start to get spooked. Like with the original line of thinking in this thread.

Muslims: different: violent: bad.

I agree absolutely with that. My point was that religion is a problem, not one particular brand of it. I agree with the view that all regions have the problem of the 100% monopoly on right belief.

BTW, just to clarify, I don't myself regard Christianity as a moderate religion but many do, largely I feel because most of the proclaimed Christians you come across wouldn't start having a problem with you because you choose to grow different types of crops in the same field or wear two different types of cloth. In short, Christianity (generally perhaps) has moved on a little from its origins - I do not personally believe that this makes it any better or more acceptable than any other religion.

I have travelled and worked in many countries in the Middle East - and guess what, most folks you meet (or at least, the ones I met) are just ordinary people wanting to get on with their ordinary lives and they are not interested in overthrowing some percieved infidels.
 
Any practicing Catholic on this forum want to denounce the forbidding of condom usage?

Graham.

Graham,

For many years I was a Catholic, and did like other Catholics denounce the forbidding of condom usage. Surpised you never heard about it :)

Christian ideas about contraception come from church teachings rather than scripture, as the Bible has little to say about the subject. As a result, their teachings on birth control are often based on different Christian interpretations of the meaning of marriage, sex and the family.

A 2008 study suggests that most practicing Catholics are ignoring the Church's teachings on contraception and sex.

The Tablet magazine surveyed 1,500 Mass-goers in England and Wales; 40 years after Pope Paul VI forbade birth control use in his encyclical Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life).

82% of people are familiar with the Church's moral teachings but more than half of 18-45 year olds still cohabited before marriage. The contraceptive pill is used by 54.5% and nearly 69% had used or would consider using condoms.

The survey also found that more than half think that the teaching should be revised.

So why is there a general perception that all Catholics are against contraception, maybe the same reason why there is a perception that "good" Muslim citizens don't voice their opposition to what radical Muslims are saying and doing.

As Jim pointed out "a portion of the press has always painted some minority group as the WORST THING EVER".

Why because as they say bad news sells more newspapers than good, especially in a recession, when we all need an scapegoat.




Getting a bit heavy so a couple of jokes.

Question: What do you call Catholics who practice the rhythm method of contraception.?

Answer: Parents.

Remember you can kiss a nun once, you can kiss a nun twice but you mustn't get into the habit.
 
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Or the good old one about the Irish entry for the Eurovision Song Contest? Their song titled "Can't get no contraception" - they didn't enter the contest as the Pope advised them to pull out at the last moment :)
 
So why is there a general perception that all Catholics are against contraception, maybe the same reason why there is a perception that "good" Muslim citizens don't voice their opposition to what radical Muslims are saying and doing.

Nick,

we're on the same page here... What gets me is that educated Catholics know which parts to filter out, but the trouble is that the poorly (if at all) educated poverty stricken Africans don't, and seemingly follow the dogma until we see the awful pictures of starving children etc.... (and yes, I appreciate that there are other reasons that bring this into play too, but you get my point).

Take care Nick,

Graham.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Exactly.

And that is what makes the link in Pete's original post so dangerous. That type of propaganda, and that is what it is, is designed to convince "average" folks in the West that all or most Muslims are "that way" and want to have Sharia law written in the granite at the Supreme Court.

Threads like this unfortunately confirm that this type of propaganda is at least partially succeeding.

I have travelled and worked in many countries in the Middle East - and guess what, most folks you meet (or at least, the ones I met) are just ordinary people wanting to get on with their ordinary lives and they are not interested in overthrowing some percieved infidels.
 
THat's because you'd rather not think critically about this and would just rather say "Muslims are bad?"

Muslims are not bad, radical Muslims are bad. Estimates range from 7% to 10% of 1.2 billion people. Let's take the low end 7%, that's 84 million people that would kind of like to see you dead. We're not talking about a few hundred wackos here, that's 5 New York cities and 5 Los Angeles. Different perspective? If it was only 2%, it would still be 24 million people. 1%, 12 million. Thats way too many people thinking that the world's way of life should be changed permanently. Let's talk about those damn Christians that are trying to take over the world now!
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
What Muslim Radicalism Calculator did you use to get that estimate? Was it from Pat Robertson too?

There's probably what, 50 million Southern Baptists who would just as adamantly like to have Christian governments in all countries in the Middle East.

So what's the difference here again?
 
I don't actually think that Jeff pulled the race card. There is a lot wrong with many organised religions in the world (and a lot of good too), Muslim, Christian, Hindu...

The Hindu's attacked the Sikh temple at Amritsar some years ago, the Muslims are happily blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, and the fundamentalist Christians are happy to strike Darwins theory of evolution from schools in favour of the preposterous creationist theory.

I believe that Jeff was trying to point out that one set of fundamentalists is as bad as another... (anyone for the Catholic faith refusing the use of condoms in Africa?). All religions contain levels of hypocrisy, and all religions think they are the one chosen by the big man upstairs.

The fact that muslims are happily blowing themselves up is disgraceful, but I do believe in general that these people are a very small majority. Where I do agree with Pete and David is that not enough normal practicing muslims come out against these events, which then fuels the belief that they should all be lumped together as radical/fundamentalist.

So lets hear it for all stupidity within religions. Any practicing Catholic on this forum want to denounce the forbidding of condom usage?

Graham.

If they were just happily blowing themselves up there would not be a problem, they take a lot of innocent people with them and leave untold suffering behind. The whole concept of killing youself and countless others in the name of God for personal gain in the hereafter is rediculous. I can't believe that someone wrote this crap in a book that guides the religious convictions of a group of people, or made it up to further a political cause.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
The whole concept of hating gays, other religions and calling for their eradication and/or damning them to hell because they have slightly different believes on what God is and who he talked to on Earth is ridiculous. I can't believe someone wrote this crap in book that guides the convictions of a group of people, or made it up to further a political cause.
 
What Muslim Radicalism Calculator did you use to get that estimate? Was it from Pat Robertson too?

There's probably what, 50 million Southern Baptists who would just as adamantly like to have Christian governments in all countries in the Middle East.

So what's the difference here again?

You're a bright guy, go online and do a search. You're really having a problem with this Pat Robertson guy aren't you? I don't even see where he comes into this. He's not on my "top influential people list." But you need someone to blame.
At last check, the dreaded Southern Baptist were not collecting their reward in the afterlife for killing Muslims. Wanting is a far cry from doing. Bad comparison.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Yeah, I do have a problem with people relying on Pat Robertson providing them with "information" about the Muslim world. You should too. It be like, I don't know, learning about Christians from a radical Muslim.

And not a bad comparison. Christians are killing Muslims around the world, today. In part because of religion.

Again, there are lots of good Christians and lots of good Muslims. There are lots of bad of the same.

But when the talk starts of the "Muslim problem" or the "tens of millions of radical Muslims out to get me" that's where things take a very bad turn for the worse.
 
Yeah, I do have a problem with people relying on Pat Robertson providing them with "information" about the Muslim world. You should too. It be like, I don't know, learning about Christians from a radical Muslim.

And not a bad comparison. Christians are killing Muslims around the world, today. In part because of religion.

Again, there are lots of good Christians and lots of good Muslims. There are lots of bad of the same.

But when the talk starts of the "Muslim problem" or the "tens of millions of radical Muslims out to get me" that's where things take a very bad turn for the worse.


And not a bad comparison. Christians are killing Muslims around the world, today. In part because of religion.

You're a "show me" guy! So where is all this going on?
 
Yeah, I do have a problem with people relying on Pat Robertson providing them with "information" about the Muslim world. You should too. It be like, I don't know, learning about Christians from a radical Muslim.

And not a bad comparison. Christians are killing Muslims around the world, today. In part because of religion.

Again, there are lots of good Christians and lots of good Muslims. There are lots of bad of the same.

But when the talk starts of the "Muslim problem" or the "tens of millions of radical Muslims out to get me" that's where things take a very bad turn for the worse.

Does this not present a problem? I realize that the Southern Baptist were out raising hell, but not on this scale.

List of Islamic terrorist attacks

The outer skin of World Trade Center Tower Two that remained standing after an Islamist terrorist attack orchestrated by Al-Qaeda.


  • 18 April 1983 - 1983 United States embassy bombing 63 killed, 120 wounded.
  • 23 October 1983 - 1983 Beirut barracks bombing 305 killed, 75 wounded.
  • 26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.
  • 13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 250 dead, 700 injured.
  • 28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
  • 24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
  • 25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
  • 17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, 6 armed Islamic terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 68 foreign tourists killed.
  • 14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
  • 7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
  • 4 September 1999 – A series of bombing attacks in several cities of Russia, nearly 300 killed.
  • 12 October 2000 – Attack on the USS cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
  • 11 September 2001 – 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.<SUP id=cite_ref-194 class=reference>[195]</SUP>
  • 13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on Indian parliament in New Delhi by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. 7 dead, 12 injured.
  • 27 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 30 dead, 133 injured.
  • 30 March 2002 and 24 November 2002 - Attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India. Total 25 dead.
  • 7 May 2002 – Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
  • 24 September 2002 – Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.<SUP id=cite_ref-195 class=reference>[196]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-196 class=reference>[197]</SUP>
  • 12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.<SUP id=cite_ref-afp_197-0 class=reference>[198]</SUP>
  • 16 May 2003 – Casablanca Attacks – 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafia Jihadia.
  • 11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured (alleged link to Al-Qaeda).
  • 1 September 2004 - Beslan school hostage crisis, approximately 344 civilians including 186 children killed.<SUP id=cite_ref-last_casualty_198-0 class=reference>[199]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-199 class=reference>[200]</SUP>
  • 2 November 2004 – The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.<SUP id=cite_ref-200 class=reference>[201]</SUP>
  • 4 February 2005 – Muslim terrorists attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
  • 5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.
  • 7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
  • 23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
  • 29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.<SUP id=cite_ref-201 class=reference>[202]</SUP>
  • 9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.<SUP id=cite_ref-202 class=reference>[203]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-203 class=reference>[204]</SUP> Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.<SUP id=cite_ref-204 class=reference>[205]</SUP>
  • 7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.<SUP id=cite_ref-205 class=reference>[206]</SUP>
  • 11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.
  • 14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.
  • 26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.<SUP id=cite_ref-206 class=reference>[207]</SUP> Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India.<SUP id=cite_ref-207 class=reference>[208]</SUP>
  • 13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.
  • 26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital, Mumbai. The government of India blamed Pakistan based militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba and stated that the terrorists killed/caught were citizens of Pakistan, a claim which the Pakistani government first refused but then accepted when given proof. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.<SUP id=cite_ref-208 class=reference>[209]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-209 class=reference>[210]</SUP>
  • 25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.
  • 28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.
  • 3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.<SUP id=cite_ref-210 class=reference>[211]</SUP>
  • 1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.<SUP id=cite_ref-211 class=reference>[212]</SUP>
  • 1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb in Times Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
  • 28 May 2010 - Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
You could, I suppose, start with the Holocaust, which was Christian state on Jewish violence. What, 9 million killed?

Then you can read below as well for more recent goings on in Africa.

The Troubles in Northern Ireland were at leas partialy based on Catholic v. Protestant violence.

And so on.

So do you really want to get into a "which religion is more violent" debate? Or do you just want to agree that most adherents to all of the world's religions are normal, peaceful people and that each religion has its own set of problems?


“Christians kill too!” is the topic this week as frightened and angry Americans keep raising the temperature of Islam-versus-Everyone-Else controversies. In his new book Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda, Timothy Longman writes that in three months in 1994 more than one-tenth of the population of Rwanda was killed. Longman notes, “Rwanda is an overwhelmingly Christian Country, with just under 90 percent of the population in a 1991 census claiming membership in a Catholic, Protestant, or Seventh-Day Adventist Church.” Killers from these churches engaged in ecumenical savagery, their mass-murdering sanctioned by the church and, as is well-known, often occurred in church sanctuaries turned slaughter houses. “Muslims [1.2 percent of the population] are also said to have participated much less willingly in the genocide and in particular to have resisted killing fellow Muslims,” according to Longman.

Another book much discussed this week is Eliza Griswold’s The Tenth Parallel: Dispatches from the Fault Line between Christianity and Islam. Ms. Griswold spoke at the church where she was confirmed; her father was the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the U.S. Hers is a ground-level report along the tenth parallel in Africa and Asia, an area in which half of the world’s 13 billion Muslims and 60 percent of the world’s billion Christians live, die, hope, and kill. One can know those statistics, but it is hard to absorb them. Griswold spent much time with Franklin Graham, who serves people in need and provocatively tries to convert Muslims in dangerous zones. His dismissal of Islam as a wicked and evil religion is well-reported on in the United States—and in Islamic spheres!

Abdullahi Abdullahi, a Muslim lawyer told Griswold of an outbreak of violence: “That was the day ethnicity disappeared entirely and the conflict became just about religion.” One suffering pastor, while citing the Bible, told her of the killing, “This is about religious intolerance; Our God is different than the Muslim God.” At Yelwa in Nigeria Griswold visited killing fields where 660 Muslims were massacred in two days alone; twelve mosques were burned. Archbishop Peter Akinola, well known in the United States, head of the Anglican Church of Nigeria, told her, “No Christian would pray for violence, but it would be utterly naïve to sweep this issue of Islam under the carpet. I’m not out to combat anybody. I am only doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. . . Let no Muslim think they have the monopoly on violence.” They don’t. Western encouragers of hatred against Muslims or, if Muslims, against Christians, play with fire--and death.

Disclaimers: First, the Christian apologist in me relishes chances to report on Christian peace-making. Second, there is no interest here in “equivalency” in reporting body-counts when reporting on, say, Africa: Who started each killing, and who killed most settles little. Third, there is no Western (or Christian) self-hate operating here. Finally, reporting on Christian-Muslim killing is not an advertisement for the claims of the Four Horsemen of the current Atheist Front, who argue that if we got rid of religion all would be well.

Following up on the fourth, I look at Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, a new giant of a book which reports on when, as the Economist report “two totalitarian empires, Nazi Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union, killed 14 million non-combatants, in peacetime and in war.” The latter was officially atheist, and the former bizarrely disdainful of the faiths. Where did their abolition of religion get us?

Finally, the current Christian Century includes an article by Eliza Griswold, "On the Fault Line," which features Pastor James Wuye and Imam Nuryan Ashaffa who are working with some success to find ways for people in Kaduna to coexist peacefully and creatively across the boundaries of their two faiths.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
TomP,

Yesterday, you posted a long list of all the murders done by "Muslums" in the United States from 1972 intill today.

One could argue that the Nation Of Islam was really a separate US black based religion with little in common with the mainstream Muslum Religion, but for the sake of this post we will lump them all together.

Tom, that was a very long list that appears to show a huge anount of death in the USA at the hands of Muslums.

I added them up, the total number of deaths in the US from "Muslums" since 1972, including 9-11

3,079 scarry!


Tom the total number of murders in the USA from 1972 until 2009 was:

719,367 Very scary

Tom math is not my best skill, but as I see it, the total deaths by Muslums during this period 1972-2009 is........................ready

.004

Thats four, one thousands of one percent!

When put into perspective, that is a very, very small number. If my math is off please feel free to correct me.
 
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