I am happy that the date June 15th 1215 lives (Magna Carta), and through its revisions, we derived the rule of constitutional law in the English speaking world. I'm saying, I agree with your statement whole heartily.:thumbsup:
Multiculturalism
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
I am happy that the date June 15th 1215 lives (Magna Carta), and through its revisions, we derived the rule of constitutional law in the English speaking world. I'm saying, I agree with your statement whole heartily.:thumbsup:
Damian - check this out dude, taken from the BBC. Read the text after the short piece regarding Sharia law. It should NOT exist in this day and age... :-
The Archbishop of Canterbury has caused a furore with his comment that it "seems unavoidable" that parts of Islamic Sharia law will be adopted in the UK.
For many non-Muslims, the idea of a religious court holding power over British citizens seems totally alien to our mainly-secular culture.
But not to all non-Muslims. It has often been remarked on how similar Muslims and Jews are in many of their traditions, such as food laws, burial rites and language, and this case could prove no exception. Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries. <!-- S IBOX -->
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David Frei
Registrar, The London Beth Din
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British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce.
"There's no compulsion", the registrar of the London Beth Din, David Frei, said. "We can't drag people in off the streets."
Both sides in a dispute must be Jewish, obviously, and must have agreed to have their case heard by the Beth Din. Once that has happened, its eventual decision is binding. English law states that any third party can be agreed by two sides to arbitrate in a dispute, and in this case the institutional third party is the Beth Din.
The Beth Din also takes care of a multitude of Jewish community affairs, many of which never give rise to any dispute: the dates of the Sabbath, kosher certification of caterers and bakers, medical ethics for Jewish patients and religious conversions. But it is in the areas of divorce and litigation that the Beth Din acts as a court in the western sense. <!-- S IBOX -->
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The Beth Din hears only civil disputes
The court can only act if both sides agree
Both parties to the dispute must be Jewish
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Divorce, in Jewish law, takes place when a document called a Get, written out by a scribe in Aramaic and ancient Hebrew, is handed by the husband to the wife. It is not legal the other way round, but that does not mean that men have it all their own way.
Both sides must agree, and the wife has to accept the document if she wishes the divorce to proceed. This need not always be in person, and a court official can stand in for the husband as a legal proxy in particularly fraught cases.
Jewish litigation is more varied, but a typical dispute might relate to a partnership, a Jewish school, a Jewish charity or a transaction between two businessmen. <!-- S IIMA -->
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The court can hear cases concerning quite large companies, but they must always be privately owned, in that both parties must be Jewish in order to accept the authority of the Beth Din.
The service provided by the Beth Din is best described as binding civil arbitration, and they do not seek to replace the state's civil courts.
"If one side does not accept the authority of the Beth Din, concerning divorce or any dispute, we cannot act", David Frei clarifies.
"And in the case of divorce, the parties must still obtain a civil divorce alongside the religious one." All criminal matters are reserved for the UK's state courts, and there is no appetite for change.<!-- E BO -->
Gaham,
Thanks for that, although to be fair my daughter does sometimes dscribe me as "sick".
Aah, but "sick" in the modern vernacular means super cool....
Way to go Nick :thumbsup:
Grahm that is NO DIFFERENT than using ANY MODERN DAY MEDIATOR!!! It is also NOT demanding anything of anyone. It is a service there to be used IF the parties in dispute choose to. The parties have the LEGAL RIGHT to use the courts (which this type of mediation is still under its authority) if they so choose as again I ask where is JEWISH LAW being mandated as this is all VOLUNTARY and works WITHIN THE EXISTING MAIN STREAM LEGAL SYSTEM? It also is not asking for any exceptions or any special considerations that people outside of their system wouldn't normaly recieve so again where is all the fuss?
Dude, I accept your point, as it is valid. My point is really more about religious "courts" in general. Beth Din is a far fairer system than Sharia because it HAS to be agreed between the parties, unlike Sharia.
I'm just not too comfortable with the use of the word "court" in association with Beth Din. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I don't want to see mission creep where these organisations start to take over from the normal judiciary.
David,
Terrible situation, we must take precautions and not be reckless but surely we must also not let a few mindless thugs dictate our movements and win by making us afraid, intimidated, threatened or terriorised.
Graham,
As far as I understand that is the case with Sharia law in that both parties have to agree, so I found that acceptable. However, having done a bit more research it appears as though a lot of intimidation may be going on which is not acceptable.
Nick,
Absolutely right - Women have virtually no say in a Sharia court, so agreement between the two parties should be implicit, but it's not...
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
A very good point Jim, I think we all know the answer is no. But it does seem that there are areas of Paris, the U.K. and other countries that are no go zones because of the antagonism of Muslims towards Westerners.
I am surprised to say the least, that Sharia law is being practised in the U.K.
Perhaps one of the English gentlemen could clarify for me if the U.K. laws allow this or are people just turning a blind eye?
Pat
Supporter
Putting the Catholic Church's stand on birth control as the moral equivalant of mass suicide bombing or the mass murder of 9/11 as the moral equivalant of street crime is outrageous and absurd. I'm a practicing Catholic and I find your taunts throroughly offensive.
What about comparing abortion to mass suicide bombings and 9/11? Because there are plenty of wacko ultra conservative fundamentalists who pretty much make that comparison ...
Ian
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Maybe if I say it enough it will sink in.
There are areas of all major cities where there are "no go" zones for white Christians because of the poverty in that particular area.
Europe, and in particular France, has a large, very poor underclass of Muslim immigrants. They could just as easily be Orthodox Catholics from Eastern Europe. It's not the religion that drives the violence, it is the poverty.
If you can point to me a middle class Muslim area of any major Western city where a Christian can't walk, talk, do business, etc., then I might consider your point. But I don't think you can.
There are areas of all major cities where there are "no go" zones for white Christians because of the poverty in that particular area.
Europe, and in particular France, has a large, very poor underclass of Muslim immigrants. They could just as easily be Orthodox Catholics from Eastern Europe. It's not the religion that drives the violence, it is the poverty.
If you can point to me a middle class Muslim area of any major Western city where a Christian can't walk, talk, do business, etc., then I might consider your point. But I don't think you can.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
And to follow up, there are poor areas of large Chinese, Far Eastern, Indian, etc. cities where a middle class Westerner, Christian, would be immediately assaulted. Do you blame that on the religion or the poverty?
Well, to be fair and correct, poverty sets the stage, but at some point, religion (or some sort of cultural glue) comes into the mix to provide "purpose". But, yes, your greater point is that if it weren't for the poverty, the radical beliefs (religious or not) would not take have taken hold.
For example, in the south (still), it's the poor, uneducated whites that allowed the white supremacists and KKK to really grab a foothold. Yes, there are/were more well-to-do people involved, but they are/were the minority, the masses were the poor. The same holds for the Muslim radicals in Europe (and the US).
Ian
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
I agree. The poverty creates the danger, the social/cultural "glue" is what creates the castle mentality and thus th e "no go" zone.
What makes this latest round of Muslim bashing is the belief that these poor Muslim areas of Paris and London are any different from any other poor area of a large city that are "no go" zones for the middle class.
It's just more of the fear mongering about Islam, when we've had dangerous slums and ghettoes for years. Now, we are supposed to be vewy vewy afraid that these slums -- full of poor people who are pretty much disenfranchised from the political process that people like this White Rose group seem to think they are trying to take over.
Weird.
What makes this latest round of Muslim bashing is the belief that these poor Muslim areas of Paris and London are any different from any other poor area of a large city that are "no go" zones for the middle class.
It's just more of the fear mongering about Islam, when we've had dangerous slums and ghettoes for years. Now, we are supposed to be vewy vewy afraid that these slums -- full of poor people who are pretty much disenfranchised from the political process that people like this White Rose group seem to think they are trying to take over.
Weird.
Hi guys, I'm french, and I live near Marseille, the second country here in France, and talked about in the "report".
I read almost everything that was written here, and I thought 2 times before posting here.
Concerning french situation, we are between 60 and 70 millions of french. It is said that there are 6 millions of muslims in the country.
Here in marseille (for you who don't know where this city is, it's on mediteranean coast), it's true, there is a lot of arabs living. Because it's a harbor, and it's just in front of northern africa.
I can speak for marseille, where, I think the situation is better than paris for example. We have criminality, it's true. There are some areas of the town, where muslin are concentrated, and if you are looking for marijuana it's the place to go, right.
In these areas cops are not welcome, but I don"t really think that they can't go there.
When I sometimes go downtown, I can see peoples dressed according arab's habits, and since a couple of years, you can also see some burquas!
There is a big project for building a big mosquée in marseille. This project had been long to come true, and the work has now begun.
Do I feel threatened when I go to Marseille? Not really, the city is like this, and has always been an entry point for every imigrants. In the past they were italians (my granparents were!), spanish, armenians, eastern europe people... Since 40 years, it's muslims.
When my granfather was young, he was called "dirty italian"... Now we say " fuc*ng arabs"... History is like that I guess, and human doesn"t like what doesn't look like him.
Is it a problem? Will we be invaded by "them", will we loose our identity? Will we speak arab in a near future? Will my wife be obliged to obey charia's rules?
I don't thnik so;
Of course, they concentrate all the problems, violence, drugs dealing, agressions, unemployment and so on. But, hope I won't be flamed for that, we have to consider the "problem" in its globality.
The firt immigrants generation came in france in the 50- 60's, because we needed workers. They came, as previous colonised people...
They had all the "dirty works" as spanish did before them, and italians did: making roads, building houses...
Because of a bigger cultural differences, they failed to raise their childrens into a eastern spirit. Childs were taken between their parents culture, and the culture of the country where they were living and raised.
A lot of them failed in school (despite some did it and became doctors and so on), didn't found a job, and you know the story, no job, no money, no money, no social existence.
I'm pissed off when I see a Burqua! i'm pissed off when I see a guy with a big barb and dressed with something which looks like a pyjama.
My thoughts is that poverty is the source for all that crap. When your are hopeless, you go right to whatever could give you hope and the feeling that you belong to a comunity I think. And this is what makes the game of all this middle aged Imam who are preaching a radical islam.
of course, everybody is responsible of himself, and they could have tryed harder and harder to get integrated. True.
Well all that to say that it's true, we have a lot of them, but at least in the south, the situation isnt that bad.
A last thing, the french guy interviewed in the report is some king of a neo-nazi movment member... Not the opinion of every french, just a few of them, even if I have to say that the "Front national" a french extrem right party had made good scores @ the last elections.
If you have questions, I'd be happy to answer.
olivieR.
Veek,
Millions of children that don't need to be born die in Africa every year because of your stupid Pontiff's inability to change a SINGLE FUCKING RULE that isn't even mentioned in the bible (such as it is).
To me, that is genocide. How can you say that that is the "moral equivalent of a street crime". Millions die because of a single rule that they have to follow....
Wake up Veek, you can't have it both ways. You are an articualte intelligent man, I can tell as much from your posts. However, for an intelligent man, you are bloody closed minded. Or a closed loop as Doug would say...
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