Out of the box thinking...

[Ian Anderson]

Brian

That was what he introduced himself as and was representing a company Gamell Turbine Technology

The rest of the show really sucked (imo) and most of the people at the show were not interested in anything like a turbine - more like looking at rudimentary farming implements.

The only other thing I found interesting was a parabolic mirror on gimbals that focussed the sun's heat onto a pot for fuel less cooking. It was full of water that boiled all day! About 5 - 6 foot mirror.

Ian

 

[Brian Hamilton]

How about this then...

Use this stuff in conjunction with those gaseous fuel injector replacements...

YouTube - HHO gas part one (alternative to fossil fuels)
YouTube - HHO gas part two (alternative to fossil fuels)
H2O 2000
Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc.

HHO fueled engine. Hhhhmmm... Combination of all we have discussed?

Direct injected, turbocharged, HHO fueled engine attached to a generator driving wheel motors...

 

[Ian Anderson]

Now we're getting towards perpetual motion!

Use the HHO generator to generate the gas that feeds the engine that drives the generator that powers the HHO machine. (So what comes first generator or HHO?)

Very clever!

IAn

 

[Bill Musarra]

This is a subject I am investigating very heavily. I can tell you there is more than just a simple plug in and go. done correctly, the V-8 can be set up to run on the HHO all by itself. The neat thing is that this stuff can be run along with ANY other fuel for hybrid use, or can be run by itself. In one of the simple experiments posted on Utube, a 5 horsepower engine is rigged to run on a bleeder valve arrangement that runs to the engine without a carburetor. There are ancillary problems to work out. The timing has to be adjusted(retarded) to make it work. On a lawnmower engine that is a trick manually or it can be done electronically. Extrapolated out, it can be setup for a V8. Problems include the rate of production and storage. These guys are getting phenomenal production with high frequency low amperage(less than 10 amps) setups.
The commercial side of this is unbelievable. It can replace acetylene setup completely. It can even be used in a lot of TIG aplications as well. The flame itself is only about 250-290 degrees. You can hold the tip of the torch in your figers. You could pass your hand through the flame without burning yourself. In the lab they have obtained temps of materials heated with the flame up to 10,000 degrees.
Corporate america is trying to market the cars of the future with 10,000 pounds of pressure and pure hydrogen. That is rediculous. most injectors need only 20 to about 40 psi for injection. With a carbon fiber tank of negliable size(no larger than your present fuel tank) you can store a, lets say 1000 pound pressure setup and drive all day on the HHO setup.
You can see how this would kill the oil industry. It will be a long time before they sign on. Some of these setups could be made safely and operable in the home. No more filling stations!! You think??

Bill

 

[Brian Hamilton]

This is a subject I am investigating very heavily. I can tell you there is more than just a simple plug in and go. done correctly, the V-8 can be set up to run on the HHO all by itself. The neat thing is that this stuff can be run along with ANY other fuel for hybrid use, or can be run by itself. In one of the simple experiments posted on Utube, a 5 horsepower engine is rigged to run on a bleeder valve arrangement that runs to the engine without a carburetor. There are ancillary problems to work out. The timing has to be adjusted(retarded) to make it work. On a lawnmower engine that is a trick manually or it can be done electronically. Extrapolated out, it can be setup for a V8. Problems include the rate of production and storage. These guys are getting phenomenal production with high frequency low amperage(less than 10 amps) setups.
The commercial side of this is unbelievable. It can replace acetylene setup completely. It can even be used in a lot of TIG aplications as well. The flame itself is only about 250-290 degrees. You can hold the tip of the torch in your figers. You could pass your hand through the flame without burning yourself. In the lab they have obtained temps of materials heated with the flame up to 10,000 degrees.
Corporate america is trying to market the cars of the future with 10,000 pounds of pressure and pure hydrogen. That is rediculous. most injectors need only 20 to about 40 psi for injection. With a carbon fiber tank of negliable size(no larger than your present fuel tank) you can store a, lets say 1000 pound pressure setup and drive all day on the HHO setup.
You can see how this would kill the oil industry. It will be a long time before they sign on. Some of these setups could be made safely and operable in the home. No more filling stations!! You think??

Bill

Ok, enough talking, let's build one!!! LOL We can use Fran's SLC chassis and replace the fuel tanks with presurized tanks. Then we could use the front of the car to hold the HHO system and then we could use a good ol LS1 engine as the test bed. The companies I linked before have direct swap gaseous fuel injectors that can be used for hydrogen, propane, CNG, etc. They also sell the electronics and everything we'd need. I'd bet we could get some crazy sponsorship to try it out as a proof of concept vehicle.
Oooooorrrr, we go back to the generator idea. Use the HHO system to fuel an engine attached to a generator which powers all 4 wheel motors and use regenerative braking and all that cool stuff.

All it takes is money. Sadly, I have none of that. But I have plenty of time and imagination to come up with this cool stuff! Hehehe :idea:

 

[Ian Anderson]

OK how about this?

Instead of brakes run a generator system from the wheels that powers the HHO generator - and store the gas in a small container The harder you press the brake pedal the more energy is passed through to the HHO generator. (OK I suppose there will have to be normal style brakes to assist in emergency stop situations)

Feed the HHO in with he normal petrol when the accelerator is next used to accelerate the vehicle

Basically using the braking energy normally dissapated as heat and converting it to a usable form of energy.

I am making the assumption that the HHO machine does not require gallons of water in it's production or you'd have to tow a bowser around behind the vehicle!

Ian

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Well I emailed them with all the specifics of what I'm looking for and hopefully we'll hear back from them soon. I know it takes water to make the gas, but as you said, how much is the question. Have maybe 2 fuel tanks, one for HHO and one for water. You only really need to ever fill one up, well except for that initial startup. LOL

 

[Bill Musarra]

Basically there are three types of systems out there or variations of them. The on demand systems are either those using a catalyst such as baking soda or Lye. They use the normal car setup with a bigger alternator. Their production is in the range of about 125 cc per minute. The other system is a system that uses pure water, rain water, sea water, whatever and uses some semi sophistocated electronics. Not sure of its output to date(still looking for numbers). They use a battery setup in the water that works by reversing the current sometimes as fast as 20k hz or higher. They have different size and number of plates, and the amount of output is pretty good from what I have garnered so far. The third system is of course the storage. Some are using carbon fiber tanks. Size just depends on how far you want it to last. With the direct injection, and maybe someone knows this, I am not sure you can get an injector that will put enough into the chamber to be efficient with big engines. I have seen those injectors, but I don't remember if they included HHO as one of the things injected. Think they were for CNG etc.??? I know that with the direct flow into the intake manifolds that you can get any size engine to run and to any rpm desired. Just don't know how much gas it takes to get that kind of performance.Most of the researchers are still working with the smaller(5 hp) engines, and extrapolating. Still looking. I have found a company here in the Atlanta area that has been in the business for a couple of years. I plan to contact them and try and get some more info. They are I think interested in getting dealerships or franchises. But still their products are several, and they are for the various sizes of engines up to 10 liter(as I remember) displacement. I will check them out when I get a little time and report back. Cost of these units range from $399 to several thousand.The other company that looks promising is up in Kentucky. I want to get in touch with some of the inventors/experimenters. They have the real handle on these things.

Bill

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Bill,
Thanks for the info!!! Keep looking and checking around man!! it would be awesome to be able to make a car run on a system like this.

 

[Jac Mac]

THe only 'real' problem is when you shut down or stop directly from HHO operation, for that reason alone it is better to have a small supplementary gas (lpg-cng whatever) or petrol/diesel system that can be used during the shutdown phase, purely to limit the effects of corrosion while the vehicle is not in use.

 

[Bill Musarra]

For a simple system, minimal parts you maybe correct. The slightly more sophisticated systems incorporate a dryer like the AC system. Then you have just gas with no moisture. The systems I have seen so far have not had any problems in this area. That isn't to say there aren't any.
I have seen some of the more simple ones that incorporate a water trap, similar to those on a compressor. I would think that if an injector is used, there wouldn't be any residual gas in the cylinders or intake on shutdown. Even if there was, the fire up would introduce heat that would take care of that.Maybe wrong?? If you had water in the cylinders, then you would definitely have a problem. I will have to see an engine that has run in real life, not a test stand setup to see if there are any problems like that.
With compressor tools, there isn't any problems with moisture that I am aware of. Least I haven't seen any with mine.

Bill

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Well well well...
Lookie what Brian found...

Peak & Hold Injector PQ2-3200 (Gaseous Injector)

$225.00 each, so 4 would be right at $900.00. Direct swap is what it looks like to me. Of course you'd have to redo your fuel system, but still. Pretty sweet stuff!!!

Whatcha think?

 

[Brian Hamilton]

How bout a Shelby Cobra running on Hydrogen?

New Page 1

 

[Bill Musarra]

I have spent the last several weeks investigating the state of the alternative/hybrid fuel scene. It may be a little involved, but I will try to give links to the info presented. The feelings today are much as they were in the late 70s during the last fuel crisis. Some of you don’t remember it because you were too young or weren’t yet a glimmer in your mothers eye. The results are, a lot of con artist coming out of the woodwork along with several real scientist, experimenters, and inventors. The best source for most of the information is on the internet, and Utube in particular. All one has to do is Google “HHO” and you will get over 5,000,000 hits or links. HHO is the new trade name for the electrolysis of H2O into its components, hydrogen and oxygen. The new thinking is to not separate them but leave them together as Yul Brown(Brown’s gas) did many years ago.
There are many unique properties of the gas. 1 liter of water will make 1860 liters of the gas. When ignited, it doesn’t explode but rather implodes as it recombines the oxygen and hydrogen.
As a result the temp. of the flame is less than 300 degrees Fahrenheit, but can weld aluminum at 900 degrees F, can braise copper at 1800 F, or put a hole through fire brick at 3600 F. This same pumpkin colored flame can sublimate tungsten at over 13,000 degrees F. It can even weld dissimilar compounds as well.<o></o>
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Enough background. My search led me to several inventors/experimenters who have mastered the production of the gas in one form or another. One of the beginning people who worked with the gas and it formation was Stan Myers, YouTube - Stan Meyer - hydrogen oxygen ( HHO ) - Zero Point Energy
and Jean Naudin, http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm
People are tying to reproduce what they have done, which is the splitting of ordinary tap water with as little as a half of an amp of power, with frequencys upwards of 20,000 cycles. It has proved elusive. More info here. The Car That Ran On Water. There are some lectures here also.
Some have said Myers is a fraud, as he gets more energy out than goes in without any temperature change. Many experimenters have used all forms of power, AC, DC, Pulse Width Modulators, high frequency, etc. with no results. Mr Naudin’s work is a little over my head and has been forwarded to those more into electronics.
YouTube - Hydrogen Tap (More Myers -FOCUS) 329
The worst out there are those that are trying to capitalize on fears/ignorance or both. The products they promote through their videos show how poorly they have put their products together, or the sham ways of showing the output of gas greater than they really are. You can however glean some useful information from these guys in the way they setup their units, like relays, solenoids and sensors for refilling the cells automatically and safety systems.
YouTube - BLACKMAX by MagDrive
Notice the flow meter in the video, then the bubbles in the jug. Those bubbles are no more than 1 liter/minute. Having worked in Respiratory Therapy and Anesthesia, I can asure you I know about flow rates. I have seen his system disassembled. It is nothing but stainless steel washers on a bolt, separated by a nut. No neutral cells, big separation distance. Contradictions to the research of others who are producing less and showing why they can’t be that high.
Most of the advertisements on the sides of the Google searches are tied together to send you to the same place. Some tell you they have done the research for you and give you their best offers found. Same guys.
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After following the experiments of two experimenters, who use a requiem of the scientific approach, John Aarons and a guy who wants to remain anonymous and is referred to as Zero of Zero Fossil Fuels, have been at this for several years, and communicate with other groups/individuals to figure out what to do, why it happens, theories, and how to do it along with suggestions. They both have built several working models as they have progressed. They are well versed in electronics and build their own devices to alter the O2 sensors and ECUs. These have to be altered, because the inclusion of O2 in the burning process, adds oxygen to the exhaust, which is read by the O2 sensor, which tells the processor to richen up the fuel, thus undoing some of the beneficial help of the gas.
YouTube - #34 Hydrogen HHO Zero Cell EFIE CALIBRATION 2007/09/01
Zero has over 92 videos documenting his primitive beginnings to his latest success.
YouTube - #80 - VSPB Cell Production numbers 1
He makes his information free to any that wish to replicate what he has done, or give information in the way of feedback. Aarons while communicating with viewers, is perfecting his model for sale, $500. He has around 344 videos.
There are some good info videos(4) out there concerning the use/properties of the gas
YouTube - Browns Gas - A Lecture In The Shop #1
and how to consider the engine fundamentals(10) with these applications.
YouTube - Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals #3
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What I have gathered so far is that if you produce hydrogen on demand, that is, produce it and run it into the engine, you will produce around 1 to 2 liters/minute using the 12 volt battery in your car, KOH, NaOH, and baking soda are typical electrolytes, and utilize 7-10 amps of power. Temps in the 90-100 F range.
YouTube - #80 - VSPB Cell Production numbers 1
As more KOH is added, the amperage goes up, production goes up, as well as the temperature of the cell, eventually boiling the water.
There is good information on purchasing Hydrogen and its application as the only fuel for the engine.
YouTube - Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals #8
It takes about 2 l/m or 5psi just to keep a 5 HP motor idling on its own
YouTube - Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals #4
I have checked with my local supplier of welding gas. His price is $43 for a K clinder with a rental of $7/mo. on the tank. You need your own step down regulator(s) and hoses. There are companies out there that will sell carbon fiber tanks etc. that can be purchased and put in the trunk of the car or the back of your pickup. Compressing it is the trick.
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Now the safety factor. Most systems out there for the production of the gas and usage as produced, have some one way valves, or pop off valves built into the cells. If there is a flash back to the cell, there is a POP and that is it.
YouTube - #81 - VSPB Cell blowout test 1
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Hydrogen gas burns approximately 10X faster than gasoline and has 2 1/2X the potential energy. As a gas it is lighter than air, and dissipates rather quickly. If a line comes loose from the storage, it will dissipate unless there is a spark right at the source of the leak.
YouTube - Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals #9
If it accumulates, that is a different story. Since it burns at a lower temp than the gasoline it actually drops temps in the engine.
YouTube - Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals #4
Gasoline burns so slowly that we have to have catalytic converters(Another hood wink by the government rather than develop other cleaner methods of combustion) and advanced timing to complete the burn. With the addition of Hydrogen, the timing of the engine has to be retarded, much in the way engines running NOX in the drag cars do. It burns so fast that it would work against the rising piston offsetting many gains. They have found that probably, the best adaptation of the hydrogen burning fuel is in that of the diesel engine with a spark plug or igniter cell built into the top of the head. If compressed to a temp of about 500 F, ignition would result. Kind of futuristic.
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Now there are some guys out there that are experimenting with other setups that will work. One is compressed gas, or air.
Car Runs On Air
Paul and Molly Pantone who have built a coaxial design that will burn any thing that will serve as a fuel. Even used oil.
YouTube - Paul Pantone Plasma Reactor Motor
TeslaTech Resource Center -- GEET Fuel Processor Small Engine Construction Plans
J L Naudin did as well, and demonstrated it as Plasma Fuel Refoming. He demonstrated it on many types of automobiles and farming machines
BingoFuel (Alternative Fuels researches) by Jean-Louis Naudin
Interested in magnetics or magnetic motors?
The Steorn motor.
YouTube - Respected Engineer Validates Steorn Tech
John Christy and Lou Brits. They have some legal troubles with their invention
YouTube - Free Energy - No Fuel Magnetic Motor
There are a lot of guys interested in perpetual motion.
How about doing it all from solar energy?
YouTube - Solar hydrogen home Michael Strizki
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The technology that impresses me the most is some done by William H. Richardson. He uses carbon rods, 100 volts (arc it under water) and can produce 1000 cubic feet of ”Aqualene”, a combination of oxygen, hydrogen, CO2(from the consumption of the carbon rods) and probably some CO as well per hour. I have read reports of 30-50 volts with high amperage as well. J L Naudin did it with the Bingo Fuel project back in 2003.
BingoFuel (Alternative Fuels researches) by Jean-Louis Naudin
This process has great value in that it will work on any type of water, including waste treatment water. It purifies several gallons in just 2 minutes. This could make gas available for every function that requires heat(cooking, contaminated drinking water, heating, welding etc. etc.). The treatment of waste water would benefit the fertilizer industry as well. All these systems have tremendous application to third world countries as well as disaster sites.
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This is meant to give just a little overview of what is out there, without overloading you with videos etc. You can take your time and view the ones you would like in your leisure time. I am now in the process of building my own hydrogen generator. It is best to start out on some small projects first to get a feel for the equipment and what you have to do to get it working well, then move up. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Most report about a 20% gain in fuel mileage. If another alternator/battery arrangement is added to the system, or if amperage is low enough to sustain two or more cells(I have heard as many as 6), then maybe some decent numbers can be had. Will report back as the numbers come in. Anyone interested in more info, should first look at as many of the GOOD videos and web pages, then PM me and we can talk it out.
I for one am very excited about these sort of innovations. This world is going to have to deal with the energy issues before us at some time or other. The government and big industry seem to be tied together and are lockstep in keeping things pretty much as is unless they control it. These individuals I have been researching are at the forefront of that movement.
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Bill

 

[JohnC]

Well well well...
Lookie what Brian found...

Peak & Hold Injector PQ2-3200 (Gaseous Injector)

$225.00 each, so 4 would be right at $900.00. Direct swap is what it looks like to me. Of course you'd have to redo your fuel system, but still. Pretty sweet stuff!!!

Whatcha think?

Brian, I'm nearly sure that's the Keihin LPG/CNG injector, which you can buy from any Prins dealer for about a third of what RC are charging. In the pic below they're mounted in a common LPG manifold or rail, and are setup for running flex tubes from the barbed nipples to the manifold runners. They're also available as per the picture on RC's website, for direct manifold mounting (replacing the gasoline injector) Standard import injector mounting, and they use the Honda type injector clips. Very high quality kit.

Warning: Rant mode on. Sadly, advanced LPG injection systems from Europe aren't available or approved for use in the USA for aftermarket conversions because our government essentially put the aftermarket LPG conversion industry out of business back in the late 80's by mandating EPA certification for them on an application by application basis. This meant only the OEM's could afford to provide them as EPA certification is a very expensive process (similar to CARB certification). At the time, the Big 3 didn't have much incentive to develop this niche so it essentially died or it was limited to a few fleets of busses, delivery trucks and a few F150's for individuals with deep pockets.

Hopefully the next occupant of the White House will relax some of these onerous restrictions, and will encourage the redevelopment of the aftermarket LPG conversion industry, as the infrastructure for distributing LPG to consumers already exists. And no, I am not related to the LPG industry in any way; I just resent it when a government interferes with industry to the point that innovation becomes stifled. OK, rant mode off.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Ok guys, anything new? I called the HHO company today, even though their site said not to call about the automotive system... I don't listen. LOL The said the system will vary in size & production possibility in order to facilitate anything from a commuter car to a high HP race car. I filled out their thing to be on the mailing list, I wonder what the cost of something like this will be... imagine pulling into a gas station and skipping the pumps and driving over to the water nozzle and putting in your $0.75 and filling up as everyone looks at you with disgust. LOL I mean yeah, you can top it off at home, but what's the fun in that?!
I wonder if you would have to use distilled water or if you can use tap water and just clean the electrodes every month or so...
Also, I wonder if Hydrogen Peroxide would be considered "Race Fuel"?

 

[Jac Mac]

In Regards to JohnC #35 above, Ford Australia have an LPG version for the 6 cyl Falcon car/ute as a factory option, one company rep that calls on me has been fairly involved in its ongoing refinement, like anything 'new' or 'different' info doesnt seem to get to the dealers-- or perhaps the dealer personnel lack the necessary talents to work on this stuff--. Anyway its got to the point where he is now way ahead of Ford in sorting this setup. Last time we spoke it appeared that payback on this option would only occur if you were able to put 200,000km on the vehicle within a couple of years, which put it in the fleet or business category only.

Brian-While Hydrogen Peroxide could be considered a race fuel, any enforcement agency your dealing with while asking for that classification might choose to put it in another category that would be more beneficial to their slush funds.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Haha!
I was just speaking with a friend of mine a few minutes ago. Years back we had the idea of getting our hands on a few gas turbine generators and running them to sell electricity back to the local power grid for money. Problem is, fuel is insanely expensive. I was on a hydrogen fuel kick back then too, but didn't really know how to do it. With a setup like this, if you get a generator that runs on gaseous fuel already, setting the mixture right for hydrogen should be relatively easy I would think. So now all you need is a lake, river, ocean to provide water for your fuel. They purchase energy at about $0.05-$0.08 per KwH and you can find 250 Mw generators online for sale. I am currently looking at a small inexpensive turbine generator on ebay for about $3,000 to test the proof of concept. My friend Jason has some investors who work with his family in their oil business who may be interested in something like this. Purchasing an HHO generator to fuel a power plant... Awesome idea don't ya think?