REF/SYNC Sensors

My M800 has a ERROR-sync signal that keeps coming up on cranking (I have magnetic sensors) The Engine fires on the first cycle then no ignition (spark) after that......

On the Utilities ref/sync capture screen I have

Ref Voltage -1.5V to +1.5V
Sync Voltage -0.4V to +0.4V

Can any one advise if the sync cam trigger should read more than 0.4Volts

Thanks,
Burnsy

 

[Ross Nicol]

Burns
Have you checked you have the 8v DC voltage on A12 through to each sensor, this is the power supply for both sync and ref hall effect triggers. If voltage ok check the wiring. The .4 volt + and - sounds like an induced voltage to me indicating a power supply issue. when you get the sync working ok you should see a cranking RPM around 120 on the lap top.
Hope this helps Ross

 

Thanks Ross, I am using magnetic sensors which dont use a power supply however I have found a drawing for motec - magnetic sensors showing trigger voltage levels as
0.25V min <500 rpm
1.40V min >500 rpm
So 0.4V should be O.K. at crank ( rpm shows 190 with plugs out )
It would be good to see a scope capture showing showing correct ref / sync set-up if any one has one on file

Burnsy

 

[Ross Nicol]

Ok reluctance triggers Now I get the picture.Bit rare to find people using them now days.A CRO would also check polarity too so that's not a bad Idea.Another issue could be your "Crip" crank index offset which the manual tries to explain but I had to read about ten times to get it right.I eventually found the timing marks on the Harmonic balancer were a mile out.Pays not to trust what you see, always check. With those reluctance triggers you may have your magnet too far away from the coil for it to generate a nice healthy signal.When you see it on the CRO it's not a nice shaped waveform, like you get from a hall effect unit.Can you tell I prefer powered up units. Sounds like the sync is getting through ok as the cranking revs indicate.I would ignore the errors until after you have got the thing started and then make sure they stay away.
Ross

 

[Ron Earp]

Moved to electrical forum.

R

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

The Engine fires on the first cycle then no ignition (spark) after that......

Hello Burns -
I've not yet done an M800.. but have used both magnetic and hall effect sensors on M48's. The mag sensors always seem to give errors on cranking from what I've seen, but then no errors when running. Are you saying in your post that the motor fires then dies? - if so has it ever worked ok? are you losing a power feed when 'not' cranking?

As Ross says, the hall effect sensors (powered) give a much more friendly signal to diagnose (square wave) and I have cars running sequential with hall effects that can start - run for a journey - then stop and indicate zero errors. Speaking with Peter Knight of Knight Racing Services over here, he reckons he's not done an engine running mag sensors that does not indicated errors at some point - and as many will testify his motors haul-ass!

You can adjust the trigger levels (sensitivity) manually in the setup for mag sensors on the M48 so I guess you can on the M800 too. I'll find out as I have an M880 to fit at some point soon, although I'll probably use hall effect if poss. Let us know how you get on..

 

[Bill Hara]

Burns
Recently when I started my RF for the first time, I had the Sync/Ref errors showing up everywhere whilst trying to crank it over. Found that when the car eventually started, I cleared the errors and while the car ran no error messages re-appeared.

Bill

 

Paul, Sorry for the delay in responding, I am trying to start-up for the first time and still having problems. It runs up to about 500rpm then dies -firing occasionally after that while cranking, it still appears to be a timing problem

I am currently trying to use Motec`s engine log and Interpeter program to track whats going on and understand whats happening (steep learning curve) Motec Qld have been assisting also.

Hello Bill, good to hear from you and that your car is up and running ,thanks for the advice !

Regards, Burns.

 

[HILLY]

Burns,
From memory I am not if this is relative to you problem but have you got the two little modules that plug into the engine harness sockets provided as per the attached photo. If you have not got them it will be worth checking them out as they are required even if not to resolve your current issue.

 

Peter,
I have often wondered what those sockets are provided for - especially in that location so will check it out for sure!
I just tried ringing you prior to coming inside and checking the forum.

Thanks, Burns
RF #104

 

[HILLY]

Yea mate. Sorry about that. I am back on board now.
You will need to talk to Chris Fahey. He is the auto lec that did all of the RF work. He now owns Prestige Auto Wiring. Ph 0402 917 739
He will know exactly what you need.

 

[Petri Vanska]

Hey.

I have a problem with my audi and yes I know it's not a ford but I realy need some help with my motec M800. I bought my engine (2.7 bi-turbo) with the motec and it was allready addjusted to fit the motor and the setups were allready made.

But when I installed the engine to my car the problems started. I cant get it running. It's runned before with those setups but now when I'm cranking a get multiple ref/sync errors. The sensors are magnetic hall on the crank and hall on the cam.

I have changed the timing belt but the timing is correct. All the wirings should be OK.
Any Ideas?

The main point is that the motec cant get syncronized and gives sunced not synced error and three other errors.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hello Petri -

When you say the motor has run before, has it run with the actual ECU you have and the same loom?

is it possible to have gotten the sync and ref connectors swapped?

does it pop and bang at all or is it just dead?

can you smell petrol at the exhaust after cranking?

 

[Ross Nicol]

Sounds like a wiring problem if the package has run before you installed it.
Ross

 

[Petri Vanska]

Thank you for your quick reply!

Yes I know it could be wiring problem but the rpm signal is coming to ecu from crank and the cam position also. The engine is only dead. No spark and no gas.

Yes the motor has runned on this ecu and there is no possibility that the connectors would been swapped. Where the wiring error could be? Can I assume that the wirings are correct if the ecu gets the crank signal and the cam signal. I think that the motec won't give any gas or ignition before it gets synced. Right?

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

When wired as Motec specify, the Fuel Pump is turned on and off by a relay which is in turn controlled by the M800.

In the diagnostics area, you should be able to manually turn the pump on and off to verify fuel pressure to rails etc.

You can also manually fire the ignition system to check for spark.

In general, the fuel pump will get turned on by the ECU the split second it detects a reference signal, i.e. it detects that the motor is rotating.

I would confirm both the ignition and fuel circuits first. Check also that there is +12v to one side of an injector when cranking, the other gets grounded by the ECU so if there's no 12v feed, then theres no fuel....

Definately sounds like a wiring / power feed problem.

 

[Pat Buckley]

Please check your ignition switch to make sure you aren't getting power in the "crank" position only....

 

[Ross Nicol]

When you first turn the ignition on the fuel pump runs for a couple of seconds and then stops, because as Paul says the crank is not spinning and the ref signal disappears.So can you hear the fuel pump during this time? When the fuel pump stops, open the throttle wide and you should hear all the injectors pulse.I hope you've got the injectors wired in firing order. Test the sensors using the lap top especially the TPS (Throttle position sensor).Is fuel pressure ok? Is the cranking RPM sensible? if not Ref and Sync may be switched.You haven't mentioned whether you are using the laptop for checks but I assume you are.You definately need it.
Ross

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

The fact that the motor has worked already with this ECU and loom still makes me think there is a fundamental wiring issue - probably with power feed.

Strangely enough, I always would listen for the reassuring 'prime' of the fuel pump on switch-on. It stops after a few secs - the actual delay being programmable in the ECU setup..

However, I installed and configured a new M48Pro a couple of weeks ago, and no prime on switch on....hmmmm... starts the split second you crank, motor runs fine and if you kill the motor, the pump runs on for a couple of secs as expected, but the lack of power on prime is new to me... I'll have a look at the ECU config as maybe it's optional now with the latest rev of firmware. Also - the wetting of the manifold Ross describes when full throttle is applied with motor staionary but ign on, 'might' not always occur as it too can be disabled in the software. Of course the ECU that mcpete is using is an M800 which uses much later software, but by all accounts is even more flexible in what it can offer, plus it does have very comprehensive diagnostics/monitoring/testing features so a laptop under the circumstances is essential as Ross says.

 

[Ross Nicol]

Power feed or bad grounding would be my guess Paul. Yes I shouldn't assume all Motec ECUs are set up like mine.The global injector pulse does help with starting on my car. I've found some shocking installations like the M4 in a Clubman I've got at the moment, fitted by a tuner after the original Toyota ECU was removed and just patched in to the wiring loom at the dash.I'm fitting a new loom, relays and wiring it for reliability.I always make sure the earthing is good and minimize wire joining.It doesn't take much to talk an owner into spending the money to do it properly, especially after the unreliability and wasted entry money they've endured.
Ross