Securing / Bolting Seats in a Tornado

[Gregg]

Scott, in respecting your wishes, I have started a new thread re the seatbelt anchors question and copied your post in its entirety here.

"Remember my chassis is #875, if some aspect of its construction were not acceptable to SVA, it would have been developed to meet those requirements by now!"

I never understood this kind of "sheep" mentality, if you will. Why do people constantly assume that all people are qualified for their particular job. Please do not take this post as a dig against Tornado or you as it is not meant to be. SVA and its rules & requirements were developed by "people". People are far from perfect and do make mistakes from time to time. I know I do not trust everything I am told and use my limited knowledge in my decisions. After all, in the end it is me and my life on the line. If I want to so call "overbuild" an item, so be it.

How many safety recalls have there been for cars manufactured by the Big Three, Toyota etc. Their cars all initially passed Federal safety regs before being sold to the public, didn't they?

Andy's concern is one of safety. Your safety and all other Toronado owners. I would think safety is a concern of all on the forum. Sending a private message does nothing to open a discussion which could benefit many.

Andy's interest reminds me of a question my old auto shop teacher posed. He asked why the particular car we were presently working on only had 4 lug nuts. Baffled, none of us knew the answer. The answer was because that was the MINIMUM needed to safely hold the wheel on. Obviously 5 lugs would have been better, but 5 would have added to the cost of the car.

I have no knowledge of SVA regulations, but if all they require is that the seat be firmly bolted to the car, is that a standard you are comfortable with? Frankly, I would not want my seat to be ripped from the floor in a minor traffic accident.

I have no knowledge of the thickness of the Toronado floor pan, but would question the safety of building a tube frame car, skinning the floor with aluminum and then bolting a seat to the aluminum only. My two cents.

By the way, I am building a tube frame car, skinned with aluminum and my seats are not being bolted solely to the 1/8 inch aluminum floor.








Scott Calabro

Scott Calabro
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Re: Tornado TS40 #875

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Andy,

Thanks for your concern.

This thread is about the build of #875, not what every body "thinks good engineering practice is".

Remember my chassis is #875, if some aspect of its construction were not acceptable to SVA, it would have been developed to meet those requirements by now!

I won't let this thread drift from its original intent.

Read this thread and you will see why;
Ts40 #875

I would appreciate it greatly if you made a separate thread about this if it concerns you.

Thank you,
Scott
__________________
Tornado Sports Cars USA
Tornado Sports Cars
413 977 4408

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Last edited by Scott Calabro : Today at 08:09 AM.

 

[SteveB]

Re: Toronado TS40 #875

There are three ,maybe more, approaches to seats in a car each will present different methods that should be OK from an SVA or safety point of view.

First if the seat frame is in fact part of the chassis construction it is integral and may only need a simple formed pad to be securley fitted. Original type mono's / Superformance etc are this way. ( no seat position adjustment)

Second a seat shell can be fixed through the back, sides and base; this can be onto a relatively thin floor sheet as ther are other strong back and side fixings. Also non adjustable.

Third, if you need to have adjustment and or access to the small storage space available behind the seat there will need to be a runner system and lockdown feature, if it can tilt forward. This would be unsuited to fix to a thin ali floor sheet; seat mounting bars would be needed.
As I recall these were on my previous KVA build and also on the GTD and others. My MDA build has them now sandwiched between the inner ali floor and the stainless undersheet. Picture of the frame before painting etc attached.

There are probably more methods

Regards

Steve

 

[KarlB]

Re: Toronado TS40 #875

Hi Steve,

I have almost identical steel cross members as yours on my Tornado. Added on the advise of my college lecturer, this being his preferred method of retaining the seat in position during an impact. The seats will be mounted on runners giving valuable access to the engine access panel without removing the seats.

If someone could advise how to post a pic of correct size i will add a picture

Still wearing steel underpants..................

Regards

KarlB

 

[Andy Green]

Re: Toronado TS40 #875 - Seat mounting

Thanks guys for chipping in. My priority is to make my car as safe as possible, not only for me, but when I have my wife, son & friends in the vehicle. If I believe something can easily be improved (for safety, servicing & assembly) I will do it. I’m currently in the process of building in a rear roll cage (to UK Motorsport standards); not that I planning on having to a big accident, but in the event I know the car I’ve built is as safe as possible.

When the UK VSA regulation states the following: ‘Seats are required to be secured firmly to the chassis or other obvious load bearing parts of the vehicle structure’, it is there for a reason and not being pedantic. My Tornado chassis, which was built in 2001 does not comply in this area, that’s why myself and UK builders are adding these straps. I’m sure there will be similar regulations for Europe & the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "[/IMG]<st1lace" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">USA</st1lace></st1:country-region> covering this area.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.gt40s.com/forum/ /><o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Now OK, my job is not a VSA inspector, but I do have a sound engineering judgement. Just to prove I know what I’m talking about, my first degree was in Mechanical Engineering, followed by Masters Degree in Automotive Engineering Design. I’m a Chartered Engineer and a Fellow of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. My current position is Chief Engineer at Lotus Cars, where I’ve been for the last 20 years.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]<o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Scott: presuming you have a powdered-coated chassis and the floor is riveted in place, you could still add reinforcing straps for a few dollars for your own piece of mind by bolting them in as attached. Bearing in mind your build is to be a show case for Tornado, what does this attitude say……[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]<o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]<o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]People like myself are not trying to have a go at yourself, Andy or Tornado, we just want to build a safe & well-engineering GT40.<o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Regards<o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Andy<o:p></o:p>[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
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[Dave Bilyk]

Re: Toronado TS40 #875

I read this with interest, I have a DAX that has the seat runners mounted directly to the Aluminium floor skin. The thickness is I think 1/8" and fully riveted to the chassis around the edges. For some time now, this very question has been at the back of my mind, and my personal worry is that the practice could be marginal in terms of strength and fatigue. I don't know whether there have been any instances of failure in this area but when the alarm bells start ringing .....
I think that this a general issue, not manufacterer specific, but just because the method is existing doesn't mean that it is satisfactory. When alarm bells begin ringing in professional engineers minds, I believe that the only satisfactory courses of action are to attempt to show by calculation / analysis that the method is in fact ok, or to make the improvement anyway, and I know which of those two is the safest way. I will be making the improvement.

 

[Scott Calabro]

Re: Toronado TS40 #875

Guy's,

First off I hope an administrator or Ron Earp reads this, as the title of this thread really needs to be changed.

Second, it is my opinion that it should be moved to the chassis section of the website as it will end up covering more than one manufacturer.

Third, It is T O R N A D O ... not the Oldsmobile of front wheel drive fame!

OK?

Wolodymyr,

I cant speak to your DAX.

Andy,

To my knowledege, no builder here in the USA will have an issue with a Tornado's design at registration time.

As far as SVA please consult Andy Sheldon.

From your stated education and work experience you sound like you are able to do what you wish.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you or anyone else over a very well proven design that has stood the test of time.

With almost 900 cars and 19 years of continuous production/development, no one has had a seat mounting failure.

Ever.

Thank you,
Scott

 

[Andy Green]

Re: Securing / Bolting Seats in a Toronado

I never stated that you would get a complete seat mounting failure, but how many people have removed there seats to check. Fatigue cracks around the mounting holes would be an indication that the design needs improving.

All I've said all along is that mounting the seat to an aluminuim floor is not good engineering practice and others & myself have simply offered advice.

Andy

 

[Scott Calabro]

Re: Securing / Bolting Seats in a Toronado

Andy,

Thank you for your concern, your advice has been noted.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Gregg]

Re: Toronado TS40 #875

Third, It is T O R N A D O ... not the Oldsmobile of front wheel drive fame!

OK?

Tornado.......Toronado........ same Sh*t but duly noted! Sorry Scott, too easy.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Guys Guys -

The initial spelling mistake appears to have been corrected and subsequent replies are referenced to the post they are replying to, please check for any future replies..

As the initial query related to a specifically a Tornado, I think it does not require moving. Yes it will no doubt relate to other marques too, but if I move it for that reason alone, then the same would apply to many many other posts. If Ron cares to differ on opinion, then it's his call.

Finally, let's keep this thread civil and ontrack please - the forum is not a place for any name calling - many people benfit from the helpful nature of it's membership and contributors, let's aim to keep paramount.

 

[Andy Sheldon]

Gregg

Whats your problem? Why don't you go and bolt your seats in your car?

Your last post is totally inappropriate. Take it somewhere else.

I pay for this manufacturers forum and I do not wish to read anymore rubbish posted by a guy who does not even have one of our cars.

I will be contacting Ron Earp about this.

Andy

 

[Gregg]

Gregg

Whats your problem? Why don't you go and bolt your seats in your car?

Your last post is totally inappropriate. Take it somewhere else.

I pay for this manufacturers forum and I do not wish to read anymore rubbish posted by a guy who does not even have one of our cars.

I will be contacting Ron Earp about this.

Andy

Andy, my immediate problem is tuning my XKE. I do have others though, but will not share. My problems are my problems. Whether you believe it or not, I do not have any problems with you or Scott or anyone on the forum for that matter. I have a very full life, full of immediate concerns. I particiapte in the forum for enjoyment and hopefully to learn a thing or two.

Do you have any problems with me?? Scott brought attention to my apparent spelling error. I in turn replied with a little light hearted banter.

I will make a note to myself, NO BANTER with Tornado, apparently thin skinned.

I didn't know it was a requirement that I owned one of your cars to post on the thread. As my car is a scratch build with parts sourced from many vendors, which forum should I be confined to?

Perhaps you should review Scott's build thread and the response Andy Green received in reply to his concerns about seatbelt mounts. My opinion, Andy raised a legitimate point.

Tornado's reply:

"This thread is about the build of #875, not what every body "thinks good engineering practice is"." and

"I intend to mount them in accordance with the Tornado Construction Manual."

The replies do not address Mr. Green's concerns, a Tornado owner. I do not know Mr. Green. Hi Andy, Gregg here. Good luck with your build.

With that said, does Tornado bolt the seats directly to the aluminum floor pan? If so, how thick is the floor?

Falli, where are you??? Anybody who his friendly with Falli, please tell him I missed my lashing the other day. Now look what trouble I am in.

Ron, sorry for the needless grief.

 

[Andy Sheldon]

Gregg

OK sorry don't bolt your seats in.

Go tune your XKE.

End of subject.

Andy

 

[Gregg]

Andy, is it possible for you to answer my previous questions? Thanks.

1. Does Tornado bolt the seats directly to the aluminum floor pan?

2. If so, how thick is the floor?

 

[Russ Noble]

Guys,

As a scratchbuilder can I offer an impartial observation here?

The issue does not seem to have arisen as the result of any failures in over 800 builds to date. This indicates to me that the perceived problem is theoretical rather than actual. OK it may not be 'good engineering practice' but it apparently works.

It also appears to be accepted by the regulatory authorities so that's fine.

I know guys on here tend to go somewhat overboard with the specification and design of their cars, and that's not a bad thing but if anyone is concerned about their seat mounts Andy Green has posted a simple 'piece of mind' fix.

Since there is no actual problem, what's the problem?

If anyone does eventually experience problems with the standard setup Andys solution is a cheap and easy retrofit. QED

Just my $.02

Cheers

 

[Mike Drew]

The issue does not seem to have arisen as the result of any failures in over 800 builds to date. This indicates to me that the perceived problem is theoretical rather than actual. OK it may not be 'good engineering practice' but it apparently works.

False logic. If a manufacturer mounts his seat belts to balsawood, and nobody ever crashes a car, there would be no failure. Does that make the practice 'work'? No. It is a REAL problem that has simply (by good fortune) not manifested itself in any death or injury.

Yet.

I don't (yet) own a GT40 replica, but I do have an eye for these sorts of issues. I don't have the credentials of being a professional auto engineer, but I am an extensively trained Air Force safety officer, to include in-depth training in aircraft mishap analysis, which has a very broad scope including material failure analysis, and consideration of design flaws which only come to light when there's a smoking hole in the ground.

It also appears to be accepted by the regulatory authorities so that's fine.

Regulatory authorities vary widely from place to place; while OEM manufacturers have to meet very stringent standards, component car builders don't. Here in California, nobody looks at anything from a safety perspective, as far as I know.

When building a replica car, to the greatest degree possible I look to an OEM-caliber solution for a safety-related problem. I bought my Contemporary 427 Cobra used, and have subsequently modified it to vastly improve the seat belt mounting and seat mounting, as the original owner had these items just bolted directly to the fiberglass floor! I bolted flat steel bars to the chassis under the floor, and then mounted the seats and belts to those bars.

I know guys on here tend to go somewhat overboard with the specification and design of their cars, and that's not a bad thing but if anyone is concerned about their seat mounts Andy Green has posted a simple 'piece of mind' fix.

Since there is no actual problem, what's the problem?

If anyone does eventually experience problems with the standard setup Andys solution is a cheap and easy retrofit. QED

With the proviso that 'experiencing' the problem might be a very nasty thing indeed. I would urge implementation of a known fix to a known design 'issue' before, rather than after that issue becomes a problem.

 

[Russ Noble]

False logic. If a manufacturer mounts his seat belts to balsawood, and nobody ever crashes a car, there would be no failure. Does that make the practice 'work'? No. It is a REAL problem that has simply (by good fortune) not manifested itself in any death or injury.

Yet.

Sorry Mike you're confusing the issue. It's not a safety issue, the seat does not take any significant additional loadings in a crash. They are all taken by the seatbelts which unlike your aviation scenario and experience are not fixed to the seat.

 

[Gregg]

Sorry Mike you're confusing the issue. It's not a safety issue, the seat does not take any significant additional loadings in a crash. They are all taken by the seatbelts which unlike your aviation scenario and experience are not fixed to the seat.

Russ, I respectfully disagree. You state that the "seat does not take any significant additional loadings in a crash". I do not believe this and am of the opinion that the crash testing that auto manufactuers undertake would disprove your opinion.

If the seat would not sustain any "additional" loading, have you considered the ACTUAL loadings the seat would sustain in a crash. Would you feel confortable knowing that the seat you are strapped into is held in place by several bolts to a thin sheet of aluminum?? I know I wouldn't.

If you can, answer this for me. What good are seat belts which are firmly anchored to the structure of the car if the seat I am sitting on has the ability to move?

 

[Steve C]

Guys,

At least originals and the SPF PXXXX's (I'm sure other replicas as well) have seats with very little if any mass...Seems the mass to consider then is the occupant's and if the 4 or better 5 point belts are properly fitted to secure fram/mono hard points that is best solution...Correct me if I'm wrong.

Steve P2125

 

[Russ Noble]

If you can, answer this for me. What good are seat belts which are firmly anchored to the structure of the car if the seat I am sitting on has the ability to move?

Simple. The seatbelts restrain your body so it can't move. Therefore the seat can't move. The loads go into the frame not the seat. If that's not the case then you need to look at your seatbelt design.

Edit. Steve C you have got it right.