Serious Question Chaps

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Jim

In response I don't see this so called statistic list could be accurate and not manipulated.

Too many countries are missing and especially a country like China with it's huge population doesn't get a mention.

The gun control lobby would try and have us all believe that total gun control is the answer and is possible. ( sorry I was just watching a flock of a thousand pigs fly by.)

If you were to look at all the other means available to kill people, guns don't even figure.

Look at the number of people killed and maimed by cars and other forms of transport worldwide and the numbers are staggering, but this is accepted without a second thought.

How many people die as a result of smoking?.
How many people die in sporting injuries?.
How many people die as a result of their jobs?.
How many die at the hands of inept doctors?.
How many die at the hands of terrorism?.

It is a sad fact that people will always die from any number of causes non of which can or will be able to be prevented.

A fundamental fact of the human condition is that people will always find new ways to wipe themselves and others out and that can never be stopped.

Dimi

 

[Mark]

Taking a child to the movies for a late premiere would have been a treat for all concerned. Most folks on this forum don't have bedtimes anymore and may not recall what it is to stay up very late when you usually go to sleep at eight or nine. I don't think there was anything wrong in those kids being out that late.

And, for what it's worth, the people who innocently took their children to the movies and ended up in the middle of this hellish chaos are already beating themselves up, regardless of whether anyone got hurt or not, so they don't need us to make it worse.

A fair point Jim. I regret making the comment here. I hope I had however indicated that the observation was not intended to suggest any culpability.

 

[Mark]

The anti-gun folk appear to me to be very similar to the global warming folk. I suspect many members of one are members of the other.

Living in a country with strict anti-gun laws, I can say, that if someone broke into my home with either a knife, a gun, or a baseball bat, I would be equally as frightened and equally as likely to die if the intruder has a mind to actually harm me. If I have a gun to protect myself, sure I can (and would have no moral worries about doing so) shoot the bastard. But that is if, I have the capacity to do so and have not been woken up with his hand already over my mouth! But that argument applies to a knife or a bat too. I have a selction of nice, big bats, in many rooms of my home. I still have to have the time and awarness to react quickly enough and reach one in time. I am just a bloke. No military training. I like to think I am big and tough, but frankly being burgled, attacked or beaten up is very similar psychologically, to being involved in a car wreck. I have no idea how I would react, but I do know that there would be some level of shock to take into consideration. By the time I have processed the information my bat will probably be in his hands! I'd probably have already wasted too much time and lost any slight advantage I may have had, by trying to reason with the attacker.

Not having mass access to guns does not stop murder. An A-Hole intent on doing harm can just as easily crush my skull with his boot against a curb stone as he can shoot me with a gun.

Any figures that are to be considered meaningful and dispassionate, must be figures for murder. Not figures for murder from one weapon or another. They must then be reported on a per capita basis. Otherwise, like Global Warming data, they are simply manipulated bullshit.

I also do not subscribe to the view that comparing murders due to guns has any relevant comparison to how many people die from smoking, car crashes, drug taking, surgical mal-practice or dubious sexual self-asfixiation etc. How many people die from falling off cliffs has nothing to do with laws restricting access to dangerous weapons.

I chose to smoke, i would not chose to be shot or have a kidney removed instead of a spleen.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

A fair point Jim. I regret making the comment here. I hope I had however indicated that the observation was not intended to suggest any culpability.

I'm not trying to beat you up, Mark. However, a friend of mine, who is not a parent, made a similar remark. I find that it's a peculiarity of parents that they generally love their kids and want to protect them. Staying up late for a night at the movies, especially a new film, was supposed to be a treat for all. I don't think anyone's at fault here. If I came down on you too hard, I apologize forthwith.

 

[Keith]

If you were to look at all the other means available to kill people, guns don't even figure.

Look at the number of people killed and maimed by cars and other forms of transport worldwide and the numbers are staggering, but this is accepted without a second thought.

How many people die as a result of smoking?.
How many people die in sporting injuries?.
How many people die as a result of their jobs?.
How many die at the hands of inept doctors?.
How many die at the hands of terrorism?.

It is a sad fact that people will always die from any number of causes non of which can or will be able to be prevented.

A fundamental fact of the human condition is that people will always find new ways to wipe themselves and others out and that can never be stopped.

Dimi

Dimi, I agree with much you say but I do not think comparing 'accidental unforeseen' deaths from various causes with the ultimate face-to-face violence in a place where the victim feels safe, is sustainable.

As regards media influence, perhaps we have come to be desensitised by screen violence that we are no longer horrified by gratuitous violence, and whilst films and games may NOT ultimately lead to an increase of violence, to be sure people's fascination with it (check the TV schedules) will inevitably lead to a shrug of the shoulders from many onlookers. On this board we do exhibit a high degree of empathy and synpathy for victims, and that is because most of us enjoy a similar demographic and have come up the hard way.

The key factor here is, in this type of shooting, the victims (as in any terrorist act) are not only physically injured, but many will never enter a movie theatre again even if they weren't injured.

I can personally say that being shot or killed in the line of duty has not the same impact as the effect of a violent random act with a gun in a place where you would normally feel safe and protected. Like a home, a place of work not associated with guns or even a movie theatre. I am not talking semantics here, but merely pointing out (from personal experience), that gun violence is taken so casually now and causes so much peripheral grief, that it will take an extreme outpouring of International horror to even make a dent in the perception that "Shooting Shit Happens".

I hate guns for obvious reasons, but guns are not the problem. Our relative societies have become skewed, and many don't seem to know why they're even ON planet earth at all which unfortunately, makes them capable of taking it out on innocents.

In finishing (thanks for your patience) I am incensed by people I often meet who trivialise my own experience like I was being a softy and not getting immediately back in the saddle like John Wayne - they have no fucking idea believe me, and if, as a result of that violent experience you get treated as 'damaged goods' and an embarrassment, well, it's not just the pain and the disability - believe me, so please please do not trivialise the effects and it's also probably why I get a bit snappy now & then if I feel under attack.

Gun crime is violent, nasty and seriously damaging and seems to be the medium of choice for any wanker who is at odds with the world.

Regretfully, I cannot offer any pearl's of wisdom as the solution, but I will still continue to love my fellow humans despite the garbage out there.

 

[Keith]

PS was quite impressed with Obama's response to this mess when he got down there....

Don't shoot (again)

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

PS was quite impressed with Obama's response to this mess when he got down there....

Don't shoot (again)

He got there a lot faster than to Ft Hood. Election year! What was I thinking!

 

[Doug S.]

He got there a lot faster than to Ft Hood. Election year! What was I thinking!

True, that, Al....

However, get there he did.

I don't recall his predecessor displaying that sort of sympathy anytime during his 8 year "reign" as King of the USA :furious:

There is a whole lot of election year activity here in TX...most of it just mud-slinging. I want to hear not only what the candidates want to see happen, but HOW they intend to make sure it does. Pie-in-the-sky dreams are nice, but we as a country, not to mention a state, need someone who can make things happen, not somebody who just has nice dreams.

Sad as it sounds (I know), I, for one, have been SOMEWHAT pleased by the way B.O. has made things happen, MOST promises he made during his initial run for POTUS have been kept:

1. Universal health care (yeah, I know, most of y'all hate it, but to this ol' retired schoolteacher who has always paid for his own insurance, it is better than paying for the medical care of all the illegal immigrants here in TX, who won't carry insurance at their own expense and prefer to be insured by me and all the other paying insured).

2. He got our combat troops out of Iraq, with the possible exception of a few left behind to provide security for our diplomats.

3. He promised to get rid of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and did it.

4. He promised a scheduled end to our involvement in Afghanistan and has done so...we shall see if that is carried through on, but at least he has made the plans.

I'm sure there are more...just as I am sure that there will be some election promises many on this forum will point out that have not been realized...one of which is that B.O.'s original campaign platform included "assault rifle" bans that haven't been accomplished yet...probably not his fault, just the deadlock in our government because the extreme polarization of the political parties is more important to the damn pol's than finding a way to dig ourselves out of the MANY holes we have put ourselves in. I'm just sayin'.....:uneasy:

We could do worse....and if Romney is elected, IMHO probably the >95% of Americans who are not wealthy will suffer terrible financial oppression by the tactics already displayed by Romney, who seems (at least to me) to care only about enriching the already wealthy at the expense of the middle class, not to mention the poor.

This is a terrible tragedy, nobody's fault except for the perp, who isn't talking. We as Americans believe in the right of free speech, which includes not speaking if we so desire....this maniac needs to alocute (probably spelled that WAAAY wrong, sorry) so many of the survivors and the families of the murdered can get some idea of what was going through his head, not that that will change anything.

This just emphasizes what I have been saying about the "Cult of Extremism" here in the U.S. We have so many exceptional individuals that in order for the "less-than-exceptional" to even have their existence recognized (and, by all accounts, this perp was exceptional in many manners, particularly during his academic journey) they have to do something EXTREME to even get noticed. Sadly, violence is the method many choose...I would rather see them clothe themselves in strips of bacon, as did Lady Gaga, if they want notoriety, but that didn't last long even for the phenomenal LG, did it (at least not the "bacon dress" issue).

We humans in general seem to be dead set on destroying ourselves as a race...terrorism from all corners of the world, even within our own society and now by an individual who seemingly never even cried out for help with his demons, just bowed down to them.

Sad day, indeed.....

Hard to find anyone to cheer for today....except those who displayed exceptional bravery during the carnage in that movie theater.

Doug

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

This won't even get a sigh out of most, can't really get a head of steam about tire manufacturers.

At least 13 killed as truck loaded with 23 passengers slams into trees in Texas - U.S. News

 

[Jim Craik]

So Al, you do ungerstand the differance between an accident and a murder don't you?

You do understand why the 9-11 crash of Flight 93 in Penselvania and the Air France crash of Flight 447 differ don't you?

Let me help you, one was a horrible mass murder and the other was an accident.

 

[Keith]

He got there a lot faster than to Ft Hood. Election year! What was I thinking!

Al, that's not fair mate, I had my hands up!

What were you thinking?

I reckon.."Well Al old bean, that WAS a bit cynical you know - do you think you over stated that?" - Al (to himself of course...) "Nah, fuckit."

:laugh:

No problem discerning which side of the Great Divide YOU stand on mate....

Now - you're gonna get it BIG TIME!

Incoming!!!! :army:

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Keith.

Let's look at the word ""Accidents"".

Accidents dont just happen without reason.
They are usually caused by someone's negligence or failure to act correctly.

How many car "accidents" are caused by people using mobile phones while driving which then leaves many innocent victims to suffer.

As per the above scenario the person who causes this car accident is just as guilty of murder as as a person using a gun, the outcome is the same.

Dimi

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Of course this tragedy will bring the Ban the gun Lobbyists out of the woodwork.
But the Australian Experience shows that banning guns only prohibits law abiding citizens from having them. Our pea brained legislators haven't worked out that criminals have no regard for the law, and guns are still readily available on the street if you have the money.

 

[Keith]

No. I think if you examine any facet of criminal law, premeditation or intent is a cornerstone requirement to be proven. Whilst you might argue that use of a mobile phone is a "criminal act" because knowledge of the risks involved in it's use, it is just that, a high risk. Someone injured or killed as a result of illegal (or careless) phone use (or any other driving offence for that matter, apart from delieberately driving at another to cause them injury or death), is not a premeditated act in that there was not the intent to harm or injure, but harm or injury resulted in "careless disregard" or as the Americans would say "Depraved Indifference".

In the UK, the charge of "Causing Death by Dangerous Driving" with mandatory prison terms had to be introduced as an incentive, because in the previous law, a charge of Careless Driving usually resulted in a 1 year ban and a fine, clearly not enough, but still, not a premeditated act.

In no way at all can the foregoing actions be compared with the deliberate intent to harm or injure, with a deadlly weapon. Sorry, I don't buy that, and your argument trivialises the violence of gun crime in a very offhand manner.

Accidents are a consequence of carelessness. Killing or harming by gun, by virtue of pointing and shooting at the victim is a premeditated act and therefore attempted (or actual) murder.

The only time you could possibly be correct vis a vis gun crime, is if you fired a gun in the air and the consequence was death or injury or tripped over your feet and pulled the trigger. In the latter instance, the fact that you had a gun in your hand with a round chambered would infer some kind of eventual intent to harm., whereas firing in the air could be interpreted as an act of celebration with no intent to harm.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

So Al, you do ungerstand the differance between an accident and a murder don't you?

You do understand why the 9-11 crash of Flight 93 in Penselvania and the Air France crash of Flight 447 differ don't you?

Let me help you, one was a horrible mass murder and the other was an accident.

Jim, Of course I know the difference, but the 13 people in Texas are just as dead as the 12 in Colorado, and just as horrific and gruesome. But, we don't have a deranged asshole to blame for a bad tire. I'm sure the relatives of both are hurting equally, dead is dead. The victims of Air France had 5+ minutes of sheer terror plunging from 30,000 feet due to pilot error, the victims of 911 had times of hope and terror dealing with asshole terrorists. I wouldn't want either.

 

[Jim Craik]

Keith.

Let's look at the word ""Accidents"".

Accidents dont just happen without reason.
They are usually caused by someone's negligence or failure to act correctly.

How many car "accidents" are caused by people using mobile phones while driving which then leaves many innocent victims to suffer.

As per the above scenario the person who causes this car accident is just as guilty of murder as as a person using a gun, the outcome is the same.

Dimi

So back a few years ago in an F1 race, when a wheel nut was not done up right and the wheel/tie came off and killed a turn marshal.

You are saying that tire changer is as guilty as and should be punished the same as this theater murderer?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

So back a few years ago in an F1 race, when a wheel nut was not done up right and the wheel/tie came off and killed a turn marshal.

You are saying that tire changer is as guilty as and should be punished the same as this theater murderer?

He should take responsibility for his actions. By his negligence a person died, not premeditated, but negligent. If the turn marshal was your friend or relative, then what? That's why they have different degrees of homicide.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Did you see this idiot in court today? If they are not trying for an insanity plea I would be very surprised. He's going to be in jail waiting for parole many year from now after sanity returns.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

See my post above. This man is going to the lethal injection cell, watch. My only regret on that is that there isn't a more painful death available to which he could be sentenced. A firing squad would be suitable, starting at the ankles and working upwards.

I don't usually get so bloody-minded, but there's something about this incident that really gets to me even more than my usual outrage. I'm just sick over it.

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

The problem with all of this is that there are too many bleeding heart do gooder types out there who would say that he was not in control of his actions and therefore we should feel sorry for him and give him a second chance.

When will these people learn that the victims don't get a second chance.

The justice system should be just that a ""Justice System"".

If you murder someone and get convicted and given a death sentence it should be carried out forthwith and not let him sit in prison till some bleeding heart gets him off on an insanity plea.

Even if people were made to be responsible for their actions and the consequences then the world would be a better place

The less of these types of people in this world the better.

Dimi