Serious Question Chaps

[Keith]

He should take responsibility for his actions. By his negligence a person died, not premeditated, but negligent. If the turn marshal was your friend or relative, then what? That's why they have different degrees of homicide.

Yes, but a premeditated act that results in death or serious injury ticks a whole lot more boxes in the psychological department, trust me.

When I try to explain my own experiences regarding this type of situation, many people almost instinctively want to diminish the impact (on their own psyche,) by commenting "oh, so you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time then." They seem to very much want to understand this type of act by dismissing it as an 'unhappy accident', which somehow makes it easier to deal with.

Problem with that is, it doesn't make it easier for me to deal with. I would have to say, hand on heart, that this is pretty much a 100% experience whenever it comes up.

I suppose I am making a 'victim statement' here, and really, that is all I have to add to this tragic affair.

 

[Jackal]

Dimi,

I too am deeply saddened for the effected folks, their friends and their families.

Additionally as you say countries with strict gun control laws still have shootings, but I'd like you opinion on this chart.

These are UN murder statistics with guns by country from 2002, this data is a little old, but it seems that countries with strict gun laws have considerably fewer deaths.

VIEW DATA:* * Totals *
Definition *** Source ** * Printable version***
** * Bar Graph * * Pie Chart * * Map *

Showing latest available data.
Rank** Countries* Amount*
# 1 * **South Africa: 31,918*
# 2 * **Colombia: 21,898*
# 3 * **Thailand: 20,032*
# 4 * **United States: 9,369*
# 5 * **Philippines: 7,708*
# 6 * **Mexico: 2,606*
# 7 * **Slovakia: 2,356*
# 8 * **El Salvador: 1,441*
# 9 * **Zimbabwe: 598*
# 10 * **Peru: 442*
# 11 * **Germany: 269*
# 12 * **Czech Republic: 181*
# 13 * **Ukraine: 173*
# 14 * **Canada: 144*
# 15 * **Albania: 135*
# 16 * **Costa Rica: 131*
# 17 * **Azerbaijan: 120*
# 18 * **Poland: 111*
# 19 * **Uruguay: 109*
# 20 * **Spain: 97*
# 21 * **Portugal: 90*
# 22 * **Croatia: 76*
# 23 * **Switzerland: 68*
# 24 * **Bulgaria: 63*
# 25 * **Australia: 59*
# 26 * **Sweden: 58*
# 27 * **Bolivia: 52*
# 28 * **Japan: 47*
# 29 * **Slovenia: 39*
= 30 * **Belarus: 38*
= 30 * **Hungary: 38*
# 32 * **Latvia: 28*
# 33 * **Burma: 27*
# 34 * **Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26*
# 35 * **Austria: 25*
# 36 * **Estonia: 21*
# 37 * **Moldova: 20*
# 38 * **Lithuania: 16*
= 39 * **United Kingdom: 14*
= 39 * **Denmark: 14*
# 41 * **Ireland: 12*
# 42 * **New Zealand: 10*
# 43 * **Chile: 9*
# 44 * **Cyprus: 4*
# 45 * **Morocco: 1*
= 46 * **Oman: 0*
= 46 * **Luxembourg: 0*
= 46 * **Iceland: 0*
Total: 100,693**

Well we have pretty tight gun laws now. As you see we are rated no.1. I recall that in Cape Town area there is a place called Mannenberg which has the highest murder/square metre number in the World.....

Over here they are victimizing the legal gun owners by revoking gun licenses confiscating the guns .... after which those same guns miraculously disappear from police stations and appear back on the street in criminals hands equating to farm murders, intransit van robberies etc. etc. the list goes on. It has never been the legal guns that's been a problem here. It has always been the illegal guns.:sad:

Anyway I agree fully with you guys. It is sad indeed. Hope they fry him.

 

[Mark]

He should take responsibility for his actions. By his negligence a person died, not premeditated, but negligent. If the turn marshal was your friend or relative, then what? That's why they have different degrees of homicide.

It doesn't matter what you want as a surviving family family of someone killed by accident or negligence. That's why we have laws. To protect us all from the mobs seeking blind revenge without due consideration of facts or reality. I cannot believe that supposedly inteligent folk on here, subscribe to such utter knee-jurk, hang em high and burn them at the stake mob justice.

If I forget to tie my shoe laces tightly enough, that one comes loose whilst running down the pavement and I trip and fall over into the road, causing an oncoming car to swerve to avoid me, that indavertently crashes into a tree and kills the driver, AM I A MURDERER? WAS MY NEGLIGENCE CRIMINAL?

For pities sake people, put some bloody balance into your thinking please.

It's this kind of stupidity that, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to the nanny state and an ultimate loss of freedom for everyone.

 

[Keith]

Note to self: Wear slip on shoes in the USA... :worried:

 

[Mark]

Keith.

Let's look at the word ""Accidents"".

Accidents dont just happen without reason.
They are usually caused by someone's negligence or failure to act correctly.

How many car "accidents" are caused by people using mobile phones while driving which then leaves many innocent victims to suffer.

As per the above scenario the person who causes this car accident is just as guilty of murder as as a person using a gun, the outcome is the same.

Dimi

There is a reason that some things are called accidents and not on purposes Dimi!

Murder? Seriously? I think it has something to do with intent? Killing isn't always murder. Is an instance of blue on blue in a battlefield scenario, Murder? Surely someone screwed up, mis-read intel etc? Perhaps a system failure in a targetting system causes an aircraft to fire on a civilian target? Is the Pilot a Murderer? Or the man/woman who wired up the pcb in the unit, a murderer through negligence> How about the line manager responsible for quality control? Or the Boss of the company (who as we all know from such avanues as Banking) are ultimately responsible for the acts of their employees? I am sure the mother of the dead children in many a theatre of war, considers us all Murderers. For ultimately we are all responsible. We vote, we support the systems of government and finance that allow unscrupulous people to cut corners.............. Do I really have to keep going with this. Dimi. With the greatest of respect, you are wrong on this.

I wish you well though.

Please let us remeber. There, but for the Grace of God go I. And I sincerely hope that you never have an accident of any kind, for fear of being strung up by your balls just as would be doen to a career criminal who had intent.

 

[Mark]

Note to self: Wear slip on shoes in the USA... :worried:

:thumbsup:

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

It doesn't matter what you want as a surviving family family of someone killed by accident or negligence. That's why we have laws. To protect us all from the mobs seeking blind revenge without due consideration of facts or reality. I cannot believe that supposedly inteligent folk on here, subscribe to such utter knee-jurk, hang em high and burn them at the stake mob justice.

If I forget to tie my shoe laces tightly enough, that one comes loose whilst running down the pavement and I trip and fall over into the road, causing an oncoming car to swerve to avoid me, that indavertently crashes into a tree and kills the driver, AM I A MURDERER? WAS MY NEGLIGENCE CRIMINAL?

For pities sake people, put some bloody balance into your thinking please.

It's this kind of stupidity that, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to the nanny state and an ultimate loss of freedom for everyone.

And comparing tripping over shoe laces to allowing an F1 car to leave the pits with a partially tightened wheel nut is what? The guy tightening the nut is a professional and knows when one is not tight, and knows the consequences of allowing it to leave the pit. Let's try to keep this civil. Excuse me for getting off track.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

There is a reason that some things are called accidents and not on purposes Dimi!

Murder? Seriously? I think it has something to do with intent? Killing isn't always murder. Is an instance of blue on blue in a battlefield scenario, Murder? Surely someone screwed up, mis-read intel etc? Perhaps a system failure in a targetting system causes an aircraft to fire on a civilian target? Is the Pilot a Murderer? Or the man/woman who wired up the pcb in the unit, a murderer through negligence> How about the line manager responsible for quality control? Or the Boss of the company (who as we all know from such avanues as Banking) are ultimately responsible for the acts of their employees? I am sure the mother of the dead children in many a theatre of war, considers us all Murderers. For ultimately we are all responsible. We vote, we support the systems of government and finance that allow unscrupulous people to cut corners.............. Do I really have to keep going with this. Dimi. With the greatest of respect, you are wrong on this.

I wish you well though.

Please let us remeber. There, but for the Grace of God go I. And I sincerely hope that you never have an accident of any kind, for fear of being strung up by your balls just as would be doen to a career criminal who had intent.

Driving through a stop sign and T boning a car crossing the intersection is an accident, it's also negligent homicide. Cleaning a gun and having it discharge and kill someone is an accident, it can also be negligent homicide. There is some common sense involved here Mark.

 

[Mark]

And comparing tripping over shoe laces to allowing an F1 car to leave the pits with a partially tightened wheel nut is what? The guy tightening the nut is a professional and knows when one is not tight, and knows the consequences of allowing it to leave the pit. Let's try to keep this civil. Excuse me for getting off track.

But the Law has to apply to all, not just some people at certain times. Therefrowe I feel that your point leads to over-bearing laws and the type of scenario we see to often these days, where noone will do anything for fear of reprisals later, should something unforeseen occur. I accept that I am being extreme, but suppose that I am a profesional runner and not just a fat jogger?

 

[Mark]

Driving through a stop sign and T boning a car crossing the intersection is an accident, it's also negligent homicide. Cleaning a gun and having it discharge and kill someone is an accident, it can also be negligent homicide. There is some common sense involved here Mark.

Agreed, I was commenting on an arguement stating accidents are no different to Murder. Negligent homicide is not Murder.

 

[Mark]

If you murder someone and get convicted and given a death sentence it should be carried out forthwith and not let him sit in prison till some bleeding heart gets him off on an insanity plea.

Dimi

I am anything but a bleeding heart and agree with your sentiment Dimi, but and here it is....

You can't just execute someone forthwith, without them having a right to appeal. Judges and jury's can be tainted. Even more so these days, with so much access to media hype and biased reporting. Evidence can be corrupted or gained by dubious means. Heaven forbid, when police cheifs are also politicians or politicians in the making, I fear it even more likely that the speed to have a head to sever could conceivably lead to the wrong head being severed, simply to further a career or to court media and therfore public approval and the keys to the city.

Be careful what you wish for people. Orwell may just have been right, simply a few decades out!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

But the Law has to apply to all, not just some people at certain times. Therefrowe I feel that your point leads to over-bearing laws and the type of scenario we see to often these days, where noone will do anything for fear of reprisals later, should something unforeseen occur. I accept that I am being extreme, but suppose that I am a profesional runner and not just a fat jogger?

Common sense.

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Mark

My comment is directed at the cases of murder like the current one where there is no doubt whatsoever as to how the crime was committed and who the perpetrator was.

Open and shut case.

The guy walked in and opened fire and therefore should be dealt with swiftly and without hesitation and without dragging it out for years causing more grief for the victims and cost to the community.

Dimi

 

[Mark]

I understand the sentiment Dimi. It's just realy difficult to have a system that can fluctuate according to a specific case. As hideously frustrating as that is with this case. I hope he is dealt with swiftly, but not to the detriment of the system as a whole.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

IMHO he should have been shot while "resisting" arrest.

 

[Bob Fechter]

FBI — Table 1

So for a country that is known for having the highest gun ownership on the planet, we're doing pretty good as far as safety is concerned.

"According to the FBI, the population has increased 22% in the last two decades while violent crimes have dropped 35% and violent crimes per capita have decreased 47%. The murder rate is down 51%, forcible rape down 35%, and robbery down 56%."

Quite the opposite of what the mainstream media would have us think about how dangerous an armed society can be.