Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

[Jim Craik]

So Jim...your neighbor with a hammer couldn't brain you? A punk with a knife in the mall parking lot couldn't gut you? A harried soccer mom in her SUV couldn't T-bone you? A distracted surgeon couldn't give you an infection due to their improper sterilization?

Don't kid yourself pal. Only someone who has never engaged in critical thinking would say that People With Guns Kill. People kill, pure and simple. Guns just make it easier. We have been killing since we came down out of trees.

Posted by John


OK "pal" use your finally tuned "critical thinking"

Hammer
Knife
Suv
Surgeon
Gun

Only one is designed to kill, see if you can figure out which one!

Crititical thinking my ass!

Guns just make it easier (your Quote)

Why would you want to make killing people easier.

 

[Jack]

Regardless of the method used, people kill people.
A knife and a gun makes the list. There really are knives designed for only one purpose. My old Gerber MKII and Fairbairn-Sykes should be on that list..

Inanimate objects don't indiscriminately kill, people do!

 

[Roark_John]

Don't let your own particular brand of delusion alter your grasp on reality. If you really need to believe that Jesus was divine, then you can also believe in the fairy tales of miracle healing, trans-sanguination and multiplication of foodstuffs.

As for me, unless Jesus was a plastic surgeon, the likelihood of his "repairing" the cut off ear are slim to none.

NOBODY had guns back then. Duh.

Jesus didn't need weapons...he had excellent PR. And he played up to several "prophesies" that the locals were familiar with. How many charismatic leaders throughout history needed actual force to accumulate a following? The answer is none. That almost all used force afterwards is another matter. Mayhaps THAT is why Jesus was crucified preemptively...?

The Bible is a great bed-time story, but if you are so daft as to actually believe that GOD wrote it...well then, any attempt at a sane and rational discussion beyond this point is impossible.

Absolutely he was a rebel, but he did it without guns or weapons.

In the temple he got angry but he did not kill anyone, Remember the soldiers ear in the Garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus was betrayed by Judas and arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, St. Peter cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest, who was then healed by Jesus, is that the actions of a violent man, love your enemies are those the words of a violent man.

How many more examples do you need?.

 

[Roark_John]

The hammer was a war instrument before it was a construction implement...it was adapted for that purpose.

The knife has always been a weapon first. Weapon being any tool that can be used for protection or offensive purposes.

SUV...one could argue a Sports Utility Vehicle is an offshoot of a military troop carrier...

Surgeons are another example of a wartime creation...were it not for war, the care and treatment of wounded people would never have been accelerated.

The gun was actually NOT originally invented to kill people. It was an offshoot of other developments related to implementing "Chinese" blackpowder. It was LATER militarized.

So for all your blather, your revisionist history has failed to prove your point. The one point you wanted to make, is the one point that was not possible had you any clue as to the subject at all!

Because killing is something that is not unique to humans. Not all killing has to be man-on-man. Every predator kills to eat. Don't like it? Stop riding the backs of the hairless apes that enabled you to sit on the throne at the top of the food pyramid. Go back to being a weak creature only capable of providing for yourself according to your individual abilities. I really don't care. To me you are nothing more than overhead.

Posted by John


OK "pal" use your finally tuned "critical thinking"

Hammer
Knife
Suv
Surgeon
Gun

One one is designed to kill, see if you can figure out which one!

Crititical thinking my ass!

Guns just make it easier (your Quote)

Why would you want to make killing people easier.

 

[Mike]

A gun is simply a force equalizer tool. When everyone has the same power or capability of force, then no one has a force advantage.

I find it very perplexing that anyone would not wish to be on equal ground, force wise, shoud they happen to meet a "wolf" at some point in their lives.

I might even say that these people are ASKING to be victims of those that have more force capability than them and wish to use that force for selfish reasons.

I just don't get it, why would anyone WANT to be a victim, or not do everything they possibly could to protect themselves and possibly their family from a predator?

I think I read a nice tongue in cheek description that went like this:

"OK, you people that don't want guns go on over here to the West side of the country, the rest of us will stay over here on the East side. We'll draw a line between us, make each side two different countries, and then see how long each one lasts in the real world".

 

[Jim Craik]

John,

Why would you want to make killing people easier?

 

[Roark_John]

Crash,

It's not often, and I believe this is the FIRST time I can say this, but for ONCE...we actually agree.

My only problem with the above is that the assumption of aggression of those WITH guns. Having a gun does not make one aggressive. Being in a position of authority, control and leverage of force WITH a gun, does provide an opportunity to abuse those powers. Which is precisely why EVERYONE should be armed...to prevent those opportunities for abuse.

 

[Roark_John]

Because Jim...in order to adequately protect you from whatever baddie is out there...be it a soldier from another country, a criminal on the street, or god forbid, your own elected officials...I must have the means at my disposal to prevent them from recovering to initiate force again, and conversely, slow me down with their care.

Guns make this possible. I prefer my enemies dead. There would be very little confusion in your mind had you ever experienced combat.

If you don't mind being a victim, by all means, ignore the police and military and go stand in front of them unarmed. I promise you, you will be relieved of your life very quickly by the enemy.

John,

Why would you want to make killing people easier?

 

[Mike]

Let's look at this from another angle.

You're walking around in the woods and cross pathes with a Brown Bear that outweighs you by, oh, about SIX TIMES your body weight. He's all muscle and definitely has a "force" advantage over you.

Now both of you stop and size each other up. Probably 9 out of 10 bears say to themselves, "hey look at that, I've never seen anything like that before. I think I'll leave it alone and go about my business." but it only takes that 1 out of ten that says "what the heck is THAT? Looks like it might be tasty and something I might want to "feed" on. I think I'll have a go and see what this thing is, or if it can keep me from eating it". Guess what happens if you don't have something that makes you six times stronger than you currently are? Yeah, in a couple days you end up coming out as fertilizer!

Are people really so twisted that they can justify to themselves why they shouldn't have a gun with some sort of thought process that says it would be MORE dangerous for them if the bear also had a gun?

I just don't get it, and am glad and proud that I live in a country that, for now anyway, still respects most of the rights of the INDIVIDUAL to decide what is right and wrong for themselves.

 

[Mike]

Oh, and to the British people on here that are talking about how great it is that your country doesn't allow citizens to have guns, and imply that this is how it should be in America as well, let me remind you that the British lost the right to tell us, Americans, what to do a while back...even though your government tried to use the force of GUNS to impose their same rules of law on this land. It's not how we work over here. You can think your way is better, enjoy living your life under whatever laws you choose for yourselves, but don't tell us how to live OUR lives. I couldn't care less if you don't have guns and are thrilled about that fact. You live your life the way you want to, and I will live mine the way I want to. THAT'S what freedom is about. Don't try and take it from me, or the populus of THIS land....AGAIN!

 

[Graham]

What history are YOU reading that makes Al's posting bollocks?

I am more than willing to bet my entire annual salary that the murder rate was HIGHER percentage wise BEFORE guns were a common staple with the populace. Were any of those statistics accurately recorded back then? Likely not...us commoners weren't very important in the days of the nobility/royalty!

I am one of those commoners you thick twat. Guns became popular a coupe of hundred years ago.... I'd like to think that we have become a tad more enlightened since then...and don't dodge my point. The US has the highest gun crime in the world.

But you stick to your belief! As if what happens between your ears affects the world outside it.

Wow! Thats nice... way to go! I don't think I've ever insulted someone so early in a relationship... What happens between my ears is exactly the same as yours, thoughts, ideas, ideals...oh,sorry no, that must be just me...

Meanwhile...myself and other wolves (because I ain't no fucking sheepdog...I hate sheep) like me will protect you from yourself and continue to own guns...so that we can protect you from those who would do you harm.

Meanwhile...I'll take my chances in a nation that chooses not to be ruled by the gun. I think (statistically) that I have a much greater chance of survival.

Oh, and trust me, because "you ain't no fucking sheep", I'll sleep easier at night...not.

And it's NOT guns that kill, stupid. It has always been the PERSON squeezing the trigger, wielding the knife, swinging the bat, driving the car...that kills people. ALWAYS. No possible way to argue your way out of this...we aren't talking force majeur...no hurricanes, tornadoes, or volcanoes here!

Dear me, I'm really trying to be nice here, but did you miss my point... The more guns there are in circulation, the lower the price of entry yada yada yada etc etc...and Force Majeur has got bollock all to do with it.

in response...

 

[Graham]

Let's look at this from another angle.

You're walking around in the woods and cross pathes with a Brown Bear that outweighs you by, oh, about SIX TIMES your body weight. He's all muscle and definitely has a "force" advantage over you.

Now both of you stop and size each other up. Probably 9 out of 10 bears say to themselves, "hey look at that, I've never seen anything like that before. I think I'll leave it alone and go about my business." but it only takes that 1 out of ten that says "what the heck is THAT? Looks like it might be tasty and something I might want to "feed" on. I think I'll have a go and see what this thing is, or if it can keep me from eating it". Guess what happens if you don't have something that makes you six times stronger than you currently are? Yeah, in a couple days you end up coming out as fertilizer!

Are people really so twisted that they can justify to themselves why they shouldn't have a gun with some sort of thought process that says it would be MORE dangerous for them if the bear also had a gun?

I just don't get it, and am glad and proud that I live in a country that, for now anyway, still respects most of the rights of the INDIVIDUAL to decide what is right and wrong for themselves.

Get over it and eat a curry FFS...

then you can leave your gun in the cabinet where it belongs...

 

[Graham]

Oh, and to the British people on here that are talking about how great it is that your country doesn't allow citizens to have guns, and imply that this is how it should be in America as well, let me remind you that the British lost the right to tell us, Americans, what to do a while back...even though your government tried to use the force of GUNS to impose their same rules of law on this land. It's not how we work over here. You can think your way is better, enjoy living your life under whatever laws you choose for yourselves, but don't tell us how to live OUR lives. I couldn't care less if you don't have guns and are thrilled about that fact. You live your life the way you want to, and I will live mine the way I want to. THAT'S what freedom is about. Don't try and take it from me, or the populus of THIS land....AGAIN!

Oh for fucks sake get over it....

We lost the US hundreds of years ago, which was just in the the blink of our eye.... can't you move on and become the adult we always wanted you to be? put down the gun (unless you're hunting) and take up guitar or something. It's much better for the soul.

 

[Graham]

I knew it was a bad idea posting on a political thread.:drunk:
I'll stick to GT40 related stuff.

Martin,

you did a good thing.

Don't let one or two 'good old boys' put you off!

Graham.

 

[tom pritchett]

Sure, guns work well for self defense as they should from intruders etc...However, the purpose of the 2nd amendment wasn't for hunting guns or things of this nature, it was for defense of our rights against our own government. Our government should fear the people because our government was and should be of the people for the people. I am not saying we should go on a killing spree, but an armed citizenry makes the government pause.

 

[Roark_John]

Originally Posted by WYLD
What history are YOU reading that makes Al's posting bollocks?

I am more than willing to bet my entire annual salary that the murder rate was HIGHER percentage wise BEFORE guns were a common staple with the populace. Were any of those statistics accurately recorded back then? Likely not...us commoners weren't very important in the days of the nobility/royalty!

I am one of those commoners you thick twat. Guns became popular a coupe of hundred years ago.... I'd like to think that we have become a tad more enlightened since then...and don't dodge my point. The US has the highest gun crime in the world.

A thick twat? C'mon now, you cheeky cunt! Au contraire mon frere...enlightenment has nothing to do with increasing the dole to the worthless and lazy, taking guns from the law-abiding, or capitulating to the demands of the "tame" terrorists. Because that's what your current body of legislation has done. The US has the highest gun crime rate of all INDUSTRIALIZED nations. The highest per capita gun crime rate belongs to Paraguay then Guatemala. Those bastions of Catholic communism!

But you stick to your belief! As if what happens between your ears affects the world outside it.

Wow! Thats nice... way to go! I don't think I've ever insulted someone so early in a relationship... What happens between my ears is exactly the same as yours, thoughts, ideas, ideals...oh,sorry no, that must be just
me...

My thoughts, ideas and ideals are pragmatic at best. I deal with the real world on an everyday basis. In my "day job" as the manager of an in-house machine shop, I cannot fudge reality...my measurements and cuts are either on or off...I either make good parts or I do not. In my "other" job as a soldier, I deal with the realities of political strife, poverty, feelings of helplessness under a regime, and of course ACTUAL VIOLENCE. When a man points a firearm at me, I don't appeal to his better nature...I appeal to my higher power to intervene. My firearm has not let me down to date.

Meanwhile...myself and other wolves (because I ain't no fucking sheepdog...I hate sheep) like me will protect you from yourself and continue to own guns...so that we can protect you from those who would do you harm.

Meanwhile...I'll take my chances in a nation that chooses not to be ruled by the gun. I think (statistically) that I have a much greater chance of survival.

Oh, and trust me, because "you ain't no fucking sheep", I'll sleep easier at night...not.

If your nation isn't ruled by the gun, why do you have need of a military or police force? The UK is far from paradise on earth.

I said "I ain't no fucking sheepDOG". If you are going to quote me for purposes of mocking me, at least do me the courtesy of being factually correct.

And it's NOT guns that kill, stupid. It has always been the PERSON squeezing the trigger, wielding the knife, swinging the bat, driving the car...that kills people. ALWAYS. No possible way to argue your way out of this...we aren't talking force majeur...no hurricanes, tornadoes, or volcanoes here!

Dear me, I'm really trying to be nice here, but did you miss my point... The more guns there are in circulation, the lower the price of entry yada yada yada etc etc...and Force Majeur has got bollock all to do with it.

in response...

I didn't miss your point at all...I was pointing out that your "point" was a fallacy. Much as Mexico blaming the US for drug violence and the availability of firearms HERE contributing to THEIR cartels using those guns on the Mexican military and police force. They have the problem and it is becoming ours because they can't/won't/or refuse to enforce their own laws. The US military has become the de facto world police force because nations like your own have said that there is a problem in various hotspots but refuse to offer anything but a nominal supplementary force to "assist" us in correcting them. Your worldview is a dark one...I suggest removing your head from your ass to let a little light shine for a clearer view before attempting to take me to task.

 

[Graham]

Originally Posted by WYLD
What history are YOU reading that makes Al's posting bollocks?




I didn't miss your point at all...I was pointing out that your "point" was a fallacy. Much as Mexico blaming the US for drug violence and the availability of firearms HERE contributing to THEIR cartels using those guns on the Mexican military and police force. They have the problem and it is becoming ours because they can't/won't/or refuse to enforce their own laws. The US military has become the de facto world police force because nations like your own have said that there is a problem in various hotspots but refuse to offer anything but a nominal supplementary force to "assist" us in correcting them. Your worldview is a dark one...I suggest removing your head from your ass to let a little light shine for a clearer view before attempting to take me to task.

That is actually deeply insulting as we have the second largest force in Afghanistan (over 10,000 deployed) after yours, and we had the second largest force in Iraq after yours, and our boys are dying by the day, just the same as yours.

My point is simple, the prevalence of the gun in your country simply lowers the entrance to lethal crime and mob / gang rule. Nothing says "give me what I want" like a gun in your face. Your murder rate per capita is by far the highest of all the industrialised world.

I am deeply respectful of the job your boys did in WW2 and we probably wouldn't be here without them, and if you look back over my posts, I have never advocated taking guns away from law enforcement, BUT...

Either you are a member of the NRA or you can't see the wood for the tree's.

If we took away 90 percent of the guns from the citizens of the US, I'll bet we would see gun crime drop by a significant factor.

 

[Roark_John]

That is actually deeply insulting as we have the second largest force in Afghanistan (over 10,000 deployed) after yours, and we had the second largest force in Iraq after yours, and our boys are dying by the day, just the same as yours.

No insult intended. I respect almost every member of a military force who is fighting a good fight. I just fail to see how an issue that affects the entire civilized world justifies more of OUR guys dying in that effort than anyone else. Freedom isn't free. I don't want to see our boys dying or yours. I want to see those bastards threatening our way of life to die quickly and painfully.

My point is simple, the prevalence of the gun in your country simply lowers the entrance to lethal crime and mob / gang rule. Nothing says "give me what I want" like a gun in your face. Your murder rate per capita is by far the highest of all the industrialised world.

Take away all of our legal guns and I guarantee you will see the bar lowered dramatically to an upsweep in mob/gang rule. The gun in your face can just as easily come from a policeman or soldier. I don't intend to be on the losing end of a fight like that.

I am deeply respectful of the job your boys did in WW2 and we probably wouldn't be here without them, and if you look back over my posts, I have never advocated taking guns away from law enforcement, BUT...

Either you are a member of the NRA or you can't see the wood for the tree's.

I don't affiliate myself with any organization voluntarily (except the US Army) and would never pay fees to exercise my Constitutionally-protected, God-given rights. So no...I am not an NRA cheerleader.

If we took away 90 percent of the guns from the citizens of the US, I'll bet we would see gun crime drop by a significant factor.

Where there is a will, there is a way. No law in history has EVER prevented crime. When you have members of the police selling guns out of evidence lockers to criminals, you can't really expect taking away all the legal guns will deter criminals from pursuing them? I promise you there are MANY people who feel the same way I do...when guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw. I AM a soldier...I don't depend on a surrogate warrior to fight my battles. I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

Less than 2.5% is still a pretty good per capita crime rate, gun or no gun. You are far more likely to contract heart disease, diabetes, AIDS, hepatitis, or become an alcoholic/drug addict...all of these afflictions have higher rates. Taking away our guns won't solve the mortality issue. Continuing education only helps to a point...fact is, until someone has "skin in the game" they rarely see a need to be factually informed, involved and competent in matters. It's ALWAYS someone elses responsibility. Fear-mongering does NOTHING for anyone and our last Great Experiment, Prohibition...failed miserably. If we surrender our rights to our guns, we may never get them back. Perhaps that is acceptable to you, but I will fight to the death for the rights of my future children and grandchildren to be free from that onus.

 

[Mike]

If we took away 90 percent of the guns from the citizens of the US, I'll bet we would see gun crime drop by a significant factor.

What exactly do you base this attitude upon?

In every instance that I know of where a state, or even a city, has imposed strict anti gun laws, quite the opposite of your assumption has been the case. Violent crimes, involving firearms have SKYROCKETED!

Now the argument would probably then lead you to say something like, "well if guns were banned from the earth, then gun violence would be smaller, on a per capita basis." I don't think there's any arguing that. If all the guns in the world were not around, then world gun violence numbers would be lower. That's a given...but that's also not reality.

Since you are so quick to tell others what to do and how to live their lives, why don't you try this on for size. Instead of telling people they shouldn't have a power, just because of YOUR ideology, why don't YOU go out and get the power everybody else has?...Oh, wait...your government doesn't allow you that right, does it?

I consider you nothing more than a talking head for the people that RULE YOU! You may think that you are more advanced than us as a culture, and that we should all just shut up and do as you say, but, frankly, you and your opinions you try and force upon me/us mean nothing to me/us.

Now come over here and try and impose your beliefs by force, which wouldn't be possible since you don't own a gun and I do, and you'll see exactly why we Americans wish to continue to keep our right to bear arms.

See you're all talk and no action, and we all know it because we know from what position of power you come from. Therefore, we don't respect your opinion, and will never willingly give you the power we enjoy. We're not being aggressive because we have guns, as suggested may happen to people that posess the power of a gun, we just laugh at you because you have so easily given up one your most powerful rights as a person and citizen, without a second thought, and now want US to do the same. LOL.

Yes, that's me and millions of other armed citizens that are laughing at you.

 

[Jim Craik]

Deaths from firearms per 100,000

Australia........................3.05
Canada..........................4.08
Czech Republic................2.00
Costa Rica......................4.47
Germany........................1.47
New Zealand...................2.97
Peru..............................1.18
Poland...........................0.44
Spain.............................1.01
UK.................................0.57

United States..................14.05