SL-C recommended engine/transaxle combos

[Brian Hamilton]

Dear Brian: if you turbocompound the engine, I would expect that it would be much quieter since much of the spare kinetic energy would be recaptured and sent to the wheels.

Maybe not. Mr. Paul Lamar (Aviation Rotary Engine Newsletter) says that a 4-rotor like the 1991 LeMans winner could be built for around $15 thousand. And, people drop much more than that on their V-8 reciprosaurs every day. So really it's not all that expensive.

If you turbocompound a two-rotor, you would still get something very potent, and even lighter!

Bassanio et Portia

Very nice! I did get in contact with Pineapple Racing and he quoted me a price of $12k - $20k for a 4 rotor depending on how you set it up and how "crazy" you went with it. I was thinking $18k with electronics and associated hardware (turbo). I was figuring that I'd spend about $15k on the engine itself.

Turbocompound... What do you mean by this? Are you talking about a twin turbo setup running them in series?

BTW, I see you're in Texas too. What part? I'm originally from Austin, now I live in a little bitty teeny town called Brownwood (really central Texas).

Thanks for the input!

Brian

 

[Les]

Mr. Hamilton:

I am consulting with Ye Moderatores Imperiale et Assemblatti, to find out how best to answer your question.

Turbocompounding is a well-tried and well-tested technology that is very reliable and very effective in making more horsepower without burning more fuel, and in increasing efficiency, especially of a rotary engine.

For an introdution, go to the Aviation Rotary Engine page on this: Join

Bassanio et Portia

 

[Dave]

If you turbocompound a two-rotor, you would still get something very potent, and even lighter!

A dream is all that is and an utterly ridiculous reference.

Maybe not. Mr. Paul Lamar (Aviation Rotary Engine Newsletter) says that a 4-rotor like the 1991 LeMans winner could be built for around $15 thousand.

Paul Lamar's site is nice and has been around a long time but much of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

For a "budget" turbo 4-rotor to run, you will spend $20k and that would be a "ghetto" setup. After the short block of $15k (bare bones minimum), EVERYTHING is custom = $$$$.

 

[Tim Kay]

FWIW, some research into a 3-Rotor, I found it was comparable in weight to an aluminum block v-8 when including turbo equipment. It would be safe to assume a 4 rotor would not be any weight savings over a comparable v-8 power plant. (keep in mind I truly love and am quite biased for the Wankel power plant)

So other than having an exotic motor, albeit would be quite exhilarating, bang for your buck would be with a v-8.

 

[Bram Boekestein]

Tim, you mean a 4-rotor? not a 3-rotor.
But from a turbocharged 4-rotor you can get 1000hp easy, 2000 or more can be achieved.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

There are 3 rotors and 4 rotors. It'd be crazy if someone build a 5 or 6 rotor just for fun. LOL Wonder what kinda crazy power you'd get from that monster.

As for the expense, when I was speaking to the guys at Pineapple Racing, they were quoting me $12k-$20k for the engine depending on how I wanted it setup. As for the intake manifold and fueling was concerned, my friends just got their hands on a 13b for a little R&D and they were quite sure these engines can be converted to direct injection relatively easily. I think this engine direct injected with gaseous fuel such as propane would make an insane package. Plus the emissions would be cut down significantly. Not that I really care about that. LOL

 

[Ron Earp]

If X dollars spent on a 2/3/4 rotor wankel (turbo, nitrous, blower) nets Y horsepower then....you can spend 1/3 X dollars on a pushrod V8 design (turbo, nitrous, blower) and get Y horsepower.

As far as this turbocompounding goes, sounds like some snake oil to me. So we install a turbine in the exhaust and instead of using this turbine to compress air we use it to drive a shaft that we connect back into the crank? And this generates significant gains that outweigh the complexity, weight, and so on?

Seems if turbocompounding were all that and more we'd see it being used on race cars for many years since it seems to be older technology that has been around awhile.

 

[Les]

Originally Posted by Bassanio et Portia
If you turbocompound a two-rotor, you would still get something very potent, and even lighter!

A dream is all that is and an utterly ridiculous reference.

I think you are dissatisfied because I did not finish the sentence. It should have read: "An existing two-rotor Wankel engine, either a -13B or a Renesis, would weigh less than a four-rotor Wankel. If you, Mr. Hamilton, turbocompounded an existing two-rotor engine, the result would be a lighter engine than a similarly turbocompounded four-rotor, and the two-rotor engine would still produce a lot of horsepower."

I refered to weight and to horsepower: I do not see how those two items need ridicule.

Bassanio et Portia

 

[Les]

Paul Lamar's site is nice and has been around a long time but much of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree with you that, everything that I don't know about, I should investigate thoroughly, before putting my hard-earned money into it. Especially if this new thing is introduced by a newbie to the GT40s forum, a newbie with two names ("Bassanio et Portia"? What's up with that?)!

RXHeven, I would not want you to take on faith anything that I say. Mr. Lamar on the other hand has a formidable engineering reputation extending back the last four decades.

He has presented turbocompound to Formula 1, at the World Motorsport Symposium in 2008. Here is the reaction of the F1 engineers to the idea of turbocompounding:

Subject: Formula 1 turbo compound‏
From: Paul Lamar ([email protected])
Sent: Fri 11/21/08 3:41 PM
I really shook up the conference. Lots of questions after I gave my turbo compound speech. People were talking about 5% improvement in fuel burn all day and I was offering double digit improvements.

The Formula 1 mucky mucks loved the idea. We had heads from Ferrari (John Iley), Renault (Dr. Robin Uluie) and Honda. What was most important was Tony Purnell, the guy from the FIA, liked it which is the ultimate regulating organization of Formula 1. So did Thomas Laudenbach Head of Motorsport/Powertrain, Porsche.

Looks real good to happen in a year or two.

There must be something there for such engineers to sit up and take notice.

For a "budget" turbo 4-rotor to run, you will spend $20k and that would be a "ghetto" setup. After the short block of $15k (bare bones minimum), EVERYTHING is custom = $$$$.

I agree that it would cost money to do things right. No, I would not recommend to anyone to have "ghetto" setup. That is why I suggest joining forces with all the engineering talent (and there is a lot) who subscribe to the Aviation Rotary Engine Newsletter. Many hands make light work.

Bassanio et Portia

 

[Les]

Hmmm . . . How about a VW W-12, quad-turbo or normally aspirated?

Bassanio et Portia

 

[Ron Earp]

Interesting related reading on turbo compounding.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2006/session6/2006_deer_vuk.pdf

Maybe this thread should shove off the SL-C engine transaxle combos onto its own?

 

[Les]

Interesting related reading on turbo compounding.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2006/session6/2006_deer_vuk.pdf

Nice article! Thanks, Mr. Earp!

Long-haul diesel truck engines are also adopting turbocompounding:

Detroit Diesel: Detroit Diesel - DD15 Diesel Engine Fuel Economy

Scania: Scania turbocompound

Maybe this thread should shove off the SL-C engine transaxle combos onto its own?

Agreed! Where, O Moderator, should the topic be placed? May I be of service to you in this endeavor?

Bassanio et Portia

 

[Howard Jones]

So to return to the question. "recommended engine trans-axle combination for an SLC"

Of course anything can be done with enough money. So lets break this question down to a couple of categories based on budget.

1. low cost. Here I will limit power to 300HP and a the minimum gearbox to handle it without track-work or very hard driving. Basic drive-train. Cruising package so to speak. SBC or SBF with a Audi gearbox. Engine cost would be as low as possible, power would be enough and remaining power train/gearbox cost could be held to under a 1000 dollars. This is a bare-bones package and would cost about 4-6K$ to assemble depending on what you can do yourself. If you came up with a gearbox that did not require a rebuild and an engine that doesn't need to be rebuilt and can be run as is then you might be able to do the power train for as low as $3000. I think the rest of the car would be wasted no this setup but it could be done.

2. Best power to cost ratio and good to very good performance. Again a SBC, SBF, LSX series, and a Porsche gearbox. The gearbox is going to start to really become the driving force at this point. 3-400Hp and you can use a well rebuilt 915 (2-3 thou) but you will be at the margin of the gearboxes capacity. 4-500HP and we starting to get into serious gearboxes. Limited slip is a MUST DO beyond 400HP in my opinion and I will never build a car without one unless I intend to ONLY drive it on the street and with a low power to weight ratio. Anyway a good G50XX rebuilt with some upgrades such as a limited slip and proper 1st and 2nd gears and run upside down is going to cost about $10K. You can do this cheaper but you get what you pay for. With the remaining package such as starter, flywheel and clutch were at $13K for a first class Porsche G50 hybrid. Put a 450-500HP $5K - 6K (you build it) SBC or SBF in front of it and now we are into a category of VERY quick cars The upgrade here is a LSX but at the cost of about $1 to 2K more.

3. More than 500HP big budget. Let you imagination loose. $10K -30K V8 or turbo little motor/Wankel above 600HP and a Ricardo or others such as the 930 Porsches, ZFQ, Mendolia, Quaife, and you should be thinking driving lessons. The total budget of the power-train is beginning to approach the cost of the car. If you have a look at the power/gearbox from #1 to #3 you will See a 10 fold increase to achieve a doubling of power and the gearbox to properly handle it. This is enough.....Really.

4. Total crazy street power or Bling machine (PLEASE DON'T) or race car. These all require a builder that isn't asking the original question in the first place. AND $$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Jack]

Add to Howards post..I'm using a slightly built (430HP) LS1 engine with associated electronics and a fresh 930LSD gearbox. Add oil coolers, remote electric waterpump, etc. and I have just approaching 12K in the driveline. A bargan! Can't go wrong with this for a respectable street car only.

 

[John]

low cost: don't overlook the Subaru STI motor, 300 HP stock, a ton of parts available, and will likely cost less than an SBC or SBF option

 

[Les]

So to return to the question. "recommended engine trans-axle combination for an SLC"

Of course anything can be done with enough money. So lets break this question down to a couple of categories based on budget.

1. low cost. Here I will limit power to 300HP and a the minimum gearbox to handle it without track-work or very hard driving. Basic drive-train.

That's cool. I like the way you break it down into four stages.

Another way to do stage #1 is to go with a turbocharged or supercharged 4-cylinder engine. Here is information on the GM Ecotec 290 horsepower 2.0 liter 4-cylinder:

A very cursory search for Ecotec engines on www.ebay.com turned up these two engines:

Item number: 230241906194
Cobalt SS Supercharged Engine Ecotec 2.0 Ion Redline
price: US $1,799.99
"Up for sale is a supercharged 2.0 liter ecotec engine removed from a 2004 Ion Redline that we are currently parting out.
"The car this was removed from had 34k miles on it. This is a good running engine. It comes with a 90 day parts replacement warranty. This does not cover labor costs.
"This motor is supercharged and intercooled. The supercharger and intercooler are included with the engine. The intercooler pump is NOT included with this motor. The front heat exchanger for the intercooler is not included. The clutch assembly and flywheel have also been removed from the motor.
"Although shown, the wiring harness, PCM, and accessories are not included with the motor. If they are needed, we have them for sale in our store, or we have engines with them on as well."
Item number: 110350764286
PONTIAC SOLSTICE ECOTEC ENGINE TRANSMISSION
US $2,500.00
"Up for sale is a 2.4 Ecotec engine and 5 speed transmission conversion removed from a 2006 Pontiac Solstice. This conversion has 2872 miles on it. This motor has A+ grade motor. It is not even broken in yet. This package includes the engine, transmission, alternator, shifter, power steering pump, AC compressor, engine wiring harness, engine computer and drive shaft.
"This engine makes 177 Horsepower @ 6600 RPM and 166 ft-lbs of Torque @ 4800 RPM
"This engine features V.V.T. and will provide an excellent blend of performance and fuel economy."

If you have a turbocharged Ecotec engine, just add the turbo upgrade kit.

GM Performance Parts Turbo Upgrade Kit - Chevy HHR Network
Under full disclosure, I am an engineer that works on the Performance Powertrains for General Motors. I cannot answer questions regarding future product plans or GM proprietary information, so please do not ask. My name is Bill Duncan, Any opinions expressed in my posts are my own. I will try and answer any questions based on public knowledge or my own personal opinions.

I have joined this forum to pass along information about the performance upgrade kit that was released yesterday. Here is a copy of the press release:

Turbo Upgrade Kit for Solstice GXP, Sky Redline, HHR SS
(19212670) MSRP $650

The turbo upgrade kit for the Solstice GXP, Sky Redline, and HHR SS was designed by General Motors Engineers to get the most power possible out of the LNF Turbo engine. This kit will take your vehicle from 260 hp and 260 ft-lbs to 290 hp and as much as 340 ft-lbs of torque. All this power and you will still be able to retain your full factory warranty. This kit is also 50 states emissions legal. This kit is a quick an easy install that will not affect the driveability of your vehicle in any way, but will have plenty of extra power when called upon. Because of the different drivetrain combinations there are several different calibrations with slightly different power outputs. They are as follows:

•2007 & 2008 Solstice/Sky Manual 290 Hp @5200 rpm and 340 ft-lbs @3600
•2007 & 2008 Solstice Auto 290 Hp @5200 rpm and 325 ft-lbs @3600
•2008 HHR SS Manual and Auto 290 Hp @5200 rpm and 315 ft-lbs @4800
The HP is crank HP run to SAE J1369 procedure.
This kit will also be available for the 2008-2009 Cobalt SS and all other 2009 Turbo vehicles Q1 2009.
This kit is available for order and installation from any GM dealer.
. . .
What's in the box:
1 - 11589015 Bolt Tmap Sensor
2 - 88988320 Connector Sen-MAP w/ leads
1 - 12602863 Sticker Premium Fuel
1 - 12626987 Label Cert
2 - 12626998 O-Ring T-MAP
2 - 55206797 Sensor T-MAP
1 - (npn) GM Performance Decal
1 - 19212711 Instruction Sheet Including serial number to allow for the calibration download
The Power Upgrade basically turns off the learn down feature and is tuned to protect the turbo from overspeed. Therefore, if you add something to make the engine breath better this kit will keep the horse power gains that part made. There is no specific set boost level.
*Plus Install time = 1 hour
*Fits both Coupe & Roadster
*Requires premium fuel
. . .

GM Performance Parts upgrade for Ecotec turbo - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
Here is a sheet from a dynamometer:

And according to the California Air Resources Board (CARB):

IT IS ORDERED AND RESOLVED: That installation of the LNF Turbocharged Ecotec Upgrade Kit, manufactured by general Motors Service Partts Operations (GMSPO) General Motors Performance Parts of 6200 Grand Pointe Drive, Grand Blac, Michigan 48439, has been found not to reduce the effectiveness of the applicable vehicle pollution control system, and therefore, the LNF Turgocharged Ecotec Upgrade Kit is exempt from the prohibitions in Secction 27156 of the Vehicle Code for installation on the vehicles listed in Attachment A.

Which means it is 50-state legal.
290 horsepower from a much lighter 4-cylinder engine, 50-state emissions legal and full GM warranty? What's not to love?

2. Best power to cost ratio and good to very good performance.

If you want to go brand new General Motors:

GM Performance Parts | LS7 Overview
LS7 2006 Corvette Z06 MSRP $17,495.00
without ECU and Wire Harness
What's Hot?
CNC-ported heads
Titanium guts

. . . the most technologically-advanced production GM small-block ever built.
A natural continuation of the LS Family, the LS7 uses a 7.0L aluminum 6-bolt main block, CNC-ported cylinder heads, and titanium rods and valves to pump out 505 hp and 470 lb.-ft. of torque. Talk about efficient the LS7 helps the 2008 Z06 get over 28 mpg . . . tops out at 198 mph, runs the quarter mile in 11.5 seconds at 127 mph, and hits 60 mph . . . in 3.5 seconds (in first gear) . . . .
. . . GM Performance Parts (is) offering the . . . LS7 as a complete crate engine, ready to bolt into your favorite project car.

And don't forget your ECU and Wiring Harness Kit!

3. More than 500HP big budget. Let you imagination loose.

Another gem from GM:

LS7 Crate Engine Small Block 19211710 - Crate Engine Depot
LS9 6.2L Supercharged Engine 19201990
SKU: 19201990
RETAIL: $28,741.00
YOUR PRICE: $21,999.50
The new LS9 6.2L supercharged—the standard engine in the 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1—is a technology marvel that holds the distinction of being the most powerful regular-production engine ever offered in a GM car. It helps propel the 3,324-pound ZR1 from 0-60 in 3.4 seconds and through the quarter-mile in an astonishing 11.3 seconds at 131 mph—all the way to a top speed of 205 mph! Those stats make the ZR1 not only the most powerful car ever from GM, but the quickest and fastest, too! GM Performance Parts is thrilled to offer the LS9 6.2L in a fully dressed crate engine package. And while it shares the 6.2L displacement of other LS engines, this one is unique, with stronger block casting, stronger cylinderhead castings and steel cylinder liners that are honed with a deck plate installed to maximize performance and cylinder sealing. High-rpm-validated lightweight reciprocating parts, including titanium intake valves and connecting rods, are used along with high-flow cylinder heads that flow the charge forced on them by a sixth-generation supercharger. A revised, higher-helix design delivers greater power at the low end and sustains it longer through the rpm band for broad, on-demand power whether off-idle or at speed. A dual-brick charge cooler is integrated on a unique manifold system that mounts the “blower” in the engine’s valley, with charge cooler on top.

How's that?

Bassanio et Portia

 

[Doc Kaler]

Bassanio,

I'm not sure that the LS-9 intake will reverse since the SC needs to be driven from the crank pulley. I would guess that there will be clearance problems with the passenger bulkhead. I guess, if you do indeed have a fat wallet in scenario #3 anything is possible. Perhaps the intake throttle body can be "snaked" around to face aft? Or perhaps the intake can extend into the passenger compartment and up through the roof intake? But, if you go to the trouble of making clearance forward, then you open up other engine options to ponder: Viper V-10, Ferrari V-12, etc?

 

[Doc Kaler]

Just for fun....

LS engine (500HP rule restriction) in 2250lb mid-engine, 5 spd gearbox (rule restriction) = DP Pontiac

I know their is alot of high-tech there, but can't help but notice the similarities as well. Maybe Fran can gold-finish the rear tubular components? :shy:

 

[Dan]

Just for fun....

LS engine (500HP rule restriction) in 2250lb mid-engine, 5 spd gearbox (rule restriction) = DP Pontiac

I know their is alot of high-tech there, but can't help but notice the similarities as well. Maybe Fran can gold-finish the rear tubular components? :shy:

I bet the SL-C could run in GT2 or GT1 and surprise a lot of people :stunned:

What category do you see it in Fran?


...whats the advantage of gold? strength?

 

[Doc Kaler]

Not sure the gold tubing does anything (in difference to the gold foil heat shielding). But as a Radiologist, I like shiny high-tech stuff....so it sure looks purdy!