SPF GT40 Genesis

[Jim Craik]

Alan I do not know what car this is, or if its an original, but it shows what I'm trying to say. The front wheel well opening is not "round", it curves down close to the top of the wheel rim.

Most of the original cars I have seen have this, from the first prototype to the last ones.


Where the SPF is a round arc, matching the shape of the tire.

 

[Jim Craik]

The SPF is round, matching the tire.

This is not that big a deal, but it kind of irratates me, if I ever repaint, I'll take the time to change the opening profile a little.

 

[Tim Kay]

I would add from what I have observed in original cars in person and in photos, when looking at the cockpit dash 'switch panel' in the SPF, Mk1's, I notice a difference in the angle of the dash. The topside angle of the switch panel is 'closer' to level on an SPF, eg. 20 degrees downward instead of 35 degrees, just quesstimating. What ever it is it's noticeable.

Similar to Jim noting the body form around the wheel, the dash is something the eye is always looking at and so obvious it bugs, IMO. The Ford GT also did this to their dash but being 'retro' you'ld expect settle changes like that.

I noticed this sometime shortly after new ones arrived here in California, what 2008? can't remember, and have not inspected recent late models out of SPF so maybe they have been changed. I'd like to know.

With that being said, it's not stopping me from dreaming of having one some day and the comments above by Briggs hit the nail.

 

[Keith]

The SPF is round, matching the tire.

This is not that big a deal, but it kind of irratates me, if I ever repaint, I'll take the time to change the opening profile a little.

Now you mention it, it's also a little 'fatter' (deeper?) in the nose section than the Gulf version you psoted. I'll be honest with you Jim, I think you are on the money there. The Gulf version wheel opening looks 'right'.

 

[Jim Craik]

Kieth,

You may be right, but then the gulf car is about as low as one can be, where the dark blue SPF car seems to be slightly higher in front than in the rear. Additionally, the white paint may cause an optical allusion.

Does anyone know this gulf car?

 

[Mike Drew]

I believe the first Mk 1 SPF cars had a wheel opening closer to what is being presented here as 'right'. Darryl Adams car seems to have that feature.

However, people perceived it (rightly or wrongly?) as being the 'wrong' shape and the mold was changed; the later production Mk 1 cars thus have a perfectly round wheel opening, as seen on the dark blue and white car pictured above.

So, which is 'right'?

 

[Jim Craik]

Mike,

I have looked at hundreds of photos of GT40s,

From the first prototype on. They all have the "oblong" wheel arches.

Just Google GT40 and hit "images", you'll see.

Now all this said, I LOVE my 40, and with this one, small exception, the body looks perfect!

 

[Jim Craik]

Even the very early ones have the oblong wheel openings.

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[Seymour Snerd]

Could the chass be almost 100% "original"? Sure, but then you are in the Gelscoe price range. Some changes were needed to allow a saleable price.

This suggests a different way to look at this question. In terms of cost and difficulty to modify, the car consists of a few very expensive pieces (tub, clips, etc.) and a whole bunch of relatively inexpensive pieces (a-arms, hubs, subframes, etc.). The star of this show, of course, is the tub. My original 17-point list has nothing related to a difference in the tub, except galvanizing. and a minor and debatable issue about sponson ribs.

So aside from those, if I set a completely stripped SPF tub next to a completely stripped Gelscoe tub and got out my calipers, what exactly would be different? Anything?

 

[Seymour Snerd]

... people perceived [the wheel opening] (rightly or wrongly?) as being the 'wrong' shape and the mold was changed...

Is that really true? It seems out of character, or at least inconsistent, to me that Hi-Tech would go to all the extra effort for "accuracy" in so many invisible places but then give it away in a conspicuous place due to anti-historical popular opinion.

And who were these people and why did they have so much power? Was there really a sense that one or more sales hinged on the shape of the wheel openings?

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

This suggests a different way to look at this question. In terms of cost and difficulty to modify, the car consists of a few very expensive pieces (tub, clips, etc.) and a whole bunch of relatively inexpensive pieces (a-arms, hubs, subframes, etc.). The star of this show, of course, is the tub. My original 17-point list has nothing related to a difference in the tub, except galvanizing. and a minor and debatable issue about sponson ribs.

So aside from those, if I set a completely stripped SPF tub next to a completely stripped Gelscoe tub and got out my calipers, what exactly would be different? Anything?

The "correctness" of the tub is also dependant upon the time peroid you are replicating. FAV made numerous changes in the tubs over the production for increased durability and of course the MK IIs had several differences to better accomadate the bigger lump of iron installed. The Gelscoe tub has the seat "trampoline" brackets where the SPF doe not as it uses the moulded foam seat. There are other differences that many would not notice. I would postulate that those who obsess about such differences are probably not potential SPF buyers anyway.

That they got it to 90% for the price when compared to space frame chassis and the alloy or stainless construction of RCR and CAV (nothing wrong with that/those, just not FAV style) is really pretty amazing to me.

 

[Jim Craik]

Rick, I agree 100%

 

[Seymour Snerd]

The Gelscoe tub has the seat "trampoline" brackets where the SPF doe not as it uses the moulded foam seat. There are other differences that many would not notice.

The trampoline brackets is a perfect example of what I'm trying to find out. Since I'm toying with the idea of following Jimbo and replicating those seats that's actually an extremely useful piece of information for me.

Can you think of any others, noticeable or not? I just want to know and understand my car better in relation to the thing(s) it is replicating. No detail is too small for me.

 

[Tim Kay]

I would postulate that those who obsess about such differences are probably not potential SPF buyers anyway.

Rick,
Are you speaking of tub\under the body differences or the whole car in general? If ‘the whole car’ then I would have to disagree with you. I fall into the obsessed group your speaking of, no offense taken, for I’m likely to own an SPF sooner than later.

Since this thread has morphed toward “original accuracy” I’ll add my thoughts and agree with Alan:

It seems out of character, or at least inconsistent, to me that Hi-Tech would go to all the extra effort for "accuracy" in so many invisible places but then give it away in a conspicuous place due to anti-historical popular opinion.

I would go so far to say the following:
I believe there to be a whole psychological profile for GT40 buyers\owners like me. (We’re a sick bunch, my girlfriend certainly reminds me of my mental problems daily). I want a GT40 that replicates what was because I can’t afford the “real” deal. I want what’s most accurate in my price range. To some it’s owning a GT40 Mk V or Gelscoe and to others it’s a fiberglass body with twin nostrils and a home made chassis that takes some kind of imagination to see the resemblances of a GT40. Where ever inside that range one falls we’re all guilty, some more than others, that this GT40 thing stirs our souls. I’ll tell you from experience, and having self diagnosed anal disorder, that having something “close” to perfection doesn’t quite give me full satisfaction where obtaining perfection is available, i.e. SPF and others.

Take a look at the Cobra for example. I’ve seen more than one original Cobra owner put on their license or license plate frame some wording to indicate it’s not a “kit”. Why? What ever the reason, it certainly tells you some “kits\replicas” are visually indistinguishable from the real deal, perfection. So if a claim of accuracy is stated then be prepared to be scrutinized to that level. Obsessed? Most definitely but since SPF finds it necessary to make the statement “90% accurate” they certainly validate the obsession, in fact depend on it.

Finally, the point I want to make. Scrutinizing is justified where there is a substantial ‘claim’ such as 90% correct. The visible areas for accuracy are as important, maybe more so IMO, than locations only the fabricator\assembler\mechanic will see. Further, it’s hard to imagine that Alan, who already owns an SPF, speaks about taking it to the next level of accuracy therefore redefining the level of obsession! Gotta love ya Alan, I can totally relate :thumbsup:

Hope it’s clear I am not talking about the value SPF offers for less than $100K. In that regard I can’t agree with Rick more. I admire and aplaud SPF\Hi-Tech for the ability to bring to the market the quality – and accuracy - they do.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Tim --

You nailed it. I'm trying to build a wayback machine. So I need to know everything I can find out about "differences."

None of this has anything to do with buying decisions (after all, I already did that, and am very happy with my choice) or justifying prices or having an opinion about SPF vs. Gelscoe vs FAV.

For me it's just a game ....How close can I get? .....Now that i've taken care of <deviation X> what's the next logical step <deviation Y> to take me a little bit closer?

The beauty (one of many) of the SPF GT40 is that it starts you out close enough to make the game feasible and interesting (witness Alan Petersen's delicious post earlier in this thread listing a way to reverse nearly every difference I know about).

So that's why I want to know ALL the differences. It's my roadmap.

PS. And as you point out, to Rick's comment "those who obsess about such differences are probably not potential SPF buyers anyway" I am a walking "instance proof."

 

[Pathfinder Motorsports]

Alan, Tim, and a few others feel the same way about GT40s as we do: If you want a modern sports car, you're going to buy a Porsche or Ferrari. But if a GT40 appeals to you, it's because you have a lust for both the performance and the nostalgia of the original car.

That craving oftentimes leads to a neurotic but unshakeable desire for near-perfect authenticity. And why not? If you're going to have such an iconic car, why not make it as close to the real thing as possible - in both looks and performance?

There are those that scoff at our collective commitment to authenticity. But it's that commitment that drives Pathfinder to replace the OEM seats and build our own - duplicating the originals down to the outer material and even the lining. It's why we offer original-style inspection stickers, builder plates, gauges, switches, wiper arms (no black plastic here), Mk I & II center consoles, and even the original Lucas 608 rear-view mirrors (and believe me, nothing betrays a replica faster to the experienced eye than a black plastic Ford mirror hanging from the windshield):

Do you want this ...

... or this.

Here's another example: We scrounged some original Ford warning plates sometimes found in the Mk I's for the ZF sequential shifter. Cars like P/1008 had these installed to the right of the driver's knee. This is the kind of cool detail that we have only seen on original cars - and Pathfinder 'R' cars. Take a look:

Not every customer wants all of these options, but we highly encourage them. At Pathfinder, we are obsessed about tiny details because our intent is to build a legitimate and competitive racecar that is also next to impossible to tell from an original GT40R. (And by the way, our cars race as well as they look.)

So, to Alan, Tim, and all the others out there striving to build a GT40 that would even fool the Petersen Automotive Museum (no relation, unfortunately), we know how you feel.

I suppose we can either get a 'group buy' for some therapy or just keep on pushing the authenticity envelope.

 

[Tim Kay]

I suppose we can either get a 'group buy' for some therapy or just keep on pushing the authenticity envelope

Ah, therapy, nah. As long as these voices in my head are you guys, I'll manage the madness! Thanks for the offer Alan!

 

[Seymour Snerd]

....I notice a difference in the angle of the dash. The topside angle of the switch panel is 'closer' to level on an SPF, eg. 20 degrees downward instead of 35 degrees, just quesstimating. What ever it is it's noticeable.

I would call this one an actual pointless (as far as I know) degradation by HiTech. I remember when I first sat in mine I thought it odd that that part of the dash was at an angle that made the switch positions and legends so hard to read. Now I disocover that the originals, or at least P1076 (first two pics below), had it right in the first place.

To me this is like the wheel arch thing (assuming it's true). The only thing I can think of to say is a plaintive but rhetorical "Why??"







Alan P. -- can you get me a dash that's "correct"?

 

[Pathfinder Motorsports]

Alan P. -- can you get me a dash that's "correct"?

Alan W., you mean like this:

GT40P/2094R

GT40P/1076


The top photo is GT40P/2094R, our most recent build. The second photo is from P/1076, one of the original Gulf cars. The 'R' dash seems to have the original angles to me.

Keep in mind that, apart from the 30-odd road cars, few of the racecars had similar dash layouts and there were at least three fiberglas molds that we've heard about.

 

[Pathfinder Motorsports]

Just for fun I decided to compare the photo Alan W. posted of the dashboard from P/1076 with another photo from Pathfinder P/2094. Note the similarities in details such as the exposed fuse box on the far left on the dash and the floor-mounted volt meter.

P/1076 Dash

P/2094R Dash

One difference is that P/2094 has an original center console built for the Mk I by Abbey Panels and provided to Holman Moody. Otherwise, decide for yourself on the level of authenticity ...