SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$'s

[James]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Heated Discussion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Superb!

The only way to settle this is to find someone who is ready to dyno an engine with a Holley carb. And try it! I'll buy one for a Holley here in the U.K and send it to Peter Knight of Knight Racing Services. He dynoed my engine and many other club members. I'm sure he'll be interested, if only to satisfy curiosity.

I'll contact him this Monday and see if he's game!

Regards,

J.P

 

[Steve Toner]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

This thread probably should never have been started. I was waiting for Ron's response, but since he has now decided not to, I think I will.

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The honest sharing of findings based on real world experience is what has been offered, not theory endorsed by one's beliefs or by make-believe

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I'm sorry, Knighton, but you HAVE posted some theories yourself that are just plain bogus.

[ QUOTE ]
For EFI vehicles, it is imperative to do the following before adding magnets or any other performance enhancer.

Disconnect the battery terminals and touch them together while pressing the brake. This completes the circuit and essentailly "resets" the ECU to accept the modification as the ECU is set to operate in stock configuration.

The oxygen sensor is the biggest culprit with these modifications as an increase in oxygen (complete combustion or more complete) in the exhaust will have the sensor actually send a signal to the ECU to RICHEN the mixture. Sound strange? It is. So by completing the circuit and allowing the vehicle to idle for 15 minutes, the EFI and ECU are reset to acknowledge the new enhanced configuration and cancel the oxygen senor's want to aid and assist in the richening of the air/fuel mixture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now read Todd Day's explanation of how an ECU really works. Todd had a business selling ECU upgrades for Eagle Talons & Mitsubishi Eclipses, and actually disassembled and reverse engineered the ECU code, so he understands how they work (at least for these cars). Now, it's possible that on some cars the ECU works alittle differently and that the observed gains are a result of resetting the ECU. Alone. Magnets or no magnets. Kind of like pressing Control-Alt-Delete when your PC starts acting funny. But I am not an expert on ECUs.

I really wish the DSM.ORG archives were working because there were some good discussions about these kind of devices on that mailing list several years ago, and I'd like to be able to reference them. But as it is, I'll have to leave it there for now. A proper response, as Ron said, would take a significant amount of time. I'll also mention though that the gas mileage on my Bronco varies depending on the time of year - winter gas formulations here give lower gas mileage. SO if I decided to do some "spring upgrades" by adding magnets or whatever right around the time they switched back to the summer formulation, I might attribute the mileage gains to the device rather than the gas...

[ QUOTE ]
A few years back, when my friend secured the distributor rights for Canada...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I begin to understand...

 

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Most modern ecu's do have a type of "block learn" as gm calls it where the ecu learns sensor and engine variability and modifies the mapping to accomadate this. By resetting the ecu the parameters reset to 0 and will start learning again as you drive. This will make the car feel different ie. may feel more power or may feel like you have better fuel mileage or on the flip side it all could get worse, but eventually it will all go back to the way it was. As for oxygen being high during complete combustion, it has been a while since i was an emissions repair tech but i seem to remember, the more complete the combustion, the less o2 content in the exhaust and more co2. So does this stuff really work? I dont actually care, i couldnt be bothered to try.

 

[Steve Toner]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Reference to SpiralMax Patent

What they claim is an air swirling device (of a specific construction). The actual claims make no mention of improved performance. The background information does make statements of improved fuel-air mixing resulting from the swirling.

Now, going back to Ron's statement:
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If this thing worked don't you think manufactuers, not to mention race teams, would be all over it?

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Manufacturers certainly have tried to improve swirl through the years, but they do it in the head design rather than as an add-on device...

Also keep in mind two things: The profit margin on devices like this is huge, and manufacturers sweat pennies. There might be some slight additional gains to be had from a device like this, but no manufacturer is going to want to pay the license fees when they can get "good enough" performance out of the head castings (which shouldn't cost them any extra). Race teams are another matter: unless the rules prevent it, they should be all over something like this if it really works.

Does that mean I think it works? I have no idea. I will say I am bothered by statements such as this in the patent:
[ QUOTE ]
Improved fuel-air mixing by increasing swirl flow has been heretofore accomplished by the addition of expensive add-on hardware, such as mechanized turbo chargers or blowers, to an automobile engine.

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So syno away, JP, but don't get your hopes too high. And realize that the results you get will only be valid for whatever engine & induction system you test it on...

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Knighton, I am not the moderator of this forum, Gary is, but I can definitely comment that what you've done is fairly poor behavior on a thread. That is, to delete all of your posts once the thread is started. I hope you'll not make a habit of doing such things in the future. In fact, it is the first time I've seen it happen thus I'll check the settings to set permissions so that cannot be done in the future by anyone. I don't care so much on this thread, but I'd hate to see car realted or useful information disappear overnight.

*DONE* It should now be possible to delete posts from the board on any thread. For some reason when this forum was created users were allowed to read and write. This has been corrected.

 

[Howard Jones]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

OK everybody its Christmas! Can't we all get along. I tell you what. Everybody has different experiences with their cars and maybe somebody added something that caused their car to feel better to them. This could be the result of some unknown, to the owner of said car, quanity that was altered with the addition of the in question device. Who knows?

The only way to really find out is to do a "double blind" type study with several equal vehicles, same dyno etc. This would be near impossible so I guess we'll never know will we.

I have tried some real "magic stuff" in my bike racing days because some guy said it would work and make me faster. It usually came down to the device or additive didn't cost very much and what the hell it might work. Sometimes it did in my head and I guess I finished a couple of places up the grid because I THOUGH I was going faster.

Anyway as I have always said, Its your money!

Merry Christmas everyone, kindness is cool, I love ya baby!!

Howard Jones

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

I sort of dropped the thread but I was just a little put off that someone would essentially "take their toys and go home". I'm not trying to post from some lofty position, but it just isn't something that happens daily around here. Most of the time folks get along just fine, much more so than over on www.clubcorba.com, a board I like to read from time to time. Anyhow, so be it. Merry Christmas!!!

R

 

[ChrisL]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

May I relate a story that most over 30’s Australian car enthusiastswould remember well.

Some 20 years ago, there was an aftermarket car manufacturer here in Australia by the name of Brock. This manufacturer upgraded Holden Commodores (the local GM product) to a high performance road spec. The proprietor, Peter Brock, was the most highly respected race car driver in Australia at the time, and still holds legend status (Nic named Peter Perfect). In most car enthusiast’s eyes, he could do no wrong. Even Holden saw this man as the Golden Haired Boy and permitted Brock to build these cars under licence with full factory warranty and Holden recognition. These cars were basically seen by Holden’s marketing department as a dream come true.

In the 80’s however, Peter Brock’s organisation decided that they would start fitting a miracle device called the “Energy Polariser”. (Does this sound familiar?). Brock insisted that it improved their cars’ performance and claimed that it used legitimate science to do so. Holden however were NOT so convinced and privately asked Brock to remove the item. Brock refused to do so, so Holden found themselves in a real dilemma. If they were to publicly denounce this product and discredit Peter Brock and his organisation, then they could well have a real marketing backlash on their hands. Peter Brock had been building performance cars and race cars that had no peers. How could they suggest that his science was suspect? What were they to do?

Finally Holden chose to bite the bullet and put the cars through a full factory analysis. This was no half-hearted test. It conducted the tests using all GM’s development knowledge and facilities. After all, the conclusion had to be the correct one. There were multi-millions of dollars worth of sales and two manufacturers reputations at stake here.

The final conclusion brought down by Holden was that they could NOT detect ANY measurable difference between the cars with and without the Energy Polariser… end of story. Brock was asked to remove the devices or have his special relationship with GM terminated. Peter Brock however stood his ground and vowed to continue without Holden’s support. Holden then had no choice. They pulled the plug on the relationship and contracted Tom Walkinshaw’s organisation to continue the performance car program.

Make your own conclusions about the Energy Polariser.

As a footnote, one of Brock’s Energy Polariser’s was sold at an auto memorabilia auction last month for $500 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif .

 

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

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May I relate a story that most over 30’s Australian car enthusiastswould remember well.

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Ahh so thats the story of brockies polarizer! Thanks for posting that, I never did know the full story! (I was wondering if someone from australia would post that!)
I saw a pic of a fully restored commodore in Street Machine a few issues ago, compleate with polarizer fitted.

 

[James]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Ron,

Since I started this thread I must say that I was not expecting such an outcome. Moreover, perhaps some input from those who have tried the Spiralmax, or some a pointer to a site or thread disproving the claims.

I am curious though. So I will phone Peter Knight tomorrow. I am sure he will have a 302 with a Holley on his dyno in the near future. At least we, and others, would really know if it does work.

To be honest I would not put such a device on any of my cars unless I have proof that it works.

All said this thread has quite obviously put the cat among the pigeons! Sorry about that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Regards,

J.P

 

[Steve Toner]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Just one more rant, then I'm going to drop it...

First, what is the normal variance that one could expect in back-to-back dyno runs when no changes are made? This must be taken into account when evaluating any perceived performance gains.

Second, I want to go back to what Ron said about manufacturers and say that my comment about sweating pennies was referring to the OEMs - Ford, GM, Chrysler. Certainly the aftermarket (Edelbrock, Holley, etc) would be all over this. And they could build in the same functionality without violating the patent, so there is no issue there. So why doesn't Holley make a "high swirl carb" or Edelbrock make a "high swirl intake manifold?" Unless you can convince me that swirl is differnt from turbulence, I think that the conventional wisdom is that adding it (and the associated restrictions) upstream is not beneficial. The upstream components (carb, intake manifold, head runners) are designed to be as smooth and straight as possible to minimize turbulence (among other things). Ever pocket ported your stock Ford heads? That removes the casting imperfections (the "good enough" castings that I mentioned) and reduces the restrictions and turbulence in the stock head design. Pocket porting provides a marked performance gain. But it would seem the turbulence would provide the same claimed benefit as the SpiralMax - better fuel/air mixing. So this tells me that the gains to be expected from the SpiralMax, if any, are minimal, and it may in fact reduce performance as a result of the airflow restriction it adds.

 

[Rick Merz]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

In back to back runs on a chassis dyno with out doing anything (except getting the engine hotter, which helps make HP), each run was higher by about 8 hp. First pull was made at 180° last pull at 195°. So someone could put this gizmo on make a couple of pulls and claim to get 6 hp more when really the increase in hp was due to the engine getting hotter.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

What the heck, a shorted version.

The GM Vortec Swirl technology that was originally mentioned at being the same as SprialMax is not related. The Vortec technology that GM uses refers to the cylinder head combustion chamber design that promotes swirl inside the combustion chamber. This is not upstream of the heads, in the intake, or before the intake and the two are completely unrelated.

You can check out pictures of the SprialMax "swirl inducer" here: Sprial Max

Now, let us assume that we induce swirl in the intake pipe that comes before the throttle body and intake manifold. What is going to happen to that swirl? When it hits the throttle plate then it will be disrupted completely.

The throttle plate is only going to be cracked open a few degrees at cruise so there is no other outcome for the air passing through it. It cannot maintain its' "swirling nature" imparted to it by the device. So, how can it work?

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Wow. I do a day or two out looking for a tow vehicle and look what happens! Anyway the thread seems to be a bit better now. Thanks Ron. On a side note it does appear as though I have secured a nice deal on a gently used 2002 Excursion Diesel.

 

[James]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

I have spoken with Peter Knight today!!

He has agreed to Dyno an engine with a SpiralMax under very controlled conditions. He tells me he likes to give the "truth", one way or the other. It makes no odds to him.

He will do it early next year. He will run the engine to full working temperature, then start testing.

He doesn't think it'll work though, but he's game.

He's doing it for free, so Cheers Peter! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I will buy a SpiralMax for a Holley carb and send it to him ASAP.

Regards,

J.P

P.S Peter Knight is one of the U.K's most respected Dyno specialists.

 

[Jools]

Re: SpiralMax - easy power for a few $$\'s

Well done JP. Look forward to your input next season, with or without "Spiralmax"... now where did I leave that octain boost? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Ron Earp]

Founds this while searching for something else. MythBusters, the show that looks at things like this and tests them, found no change at all with magnets on the fuel lines. Busted!

http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/05/12/mythbusters-exploding-pants-finale/

I don't know of a link to the show or episode, but it was a good watch.

Ron

 

[John Fitzpatrick]

Guys, Physics 101: Magnets produce magnetic fields which interact with other magnetic fields or substances, usually ferritic, which can alter those fields. There is nothing in gasoline which has a magnetic property of any sort. As far as ions (or cations) being influenced by a magnet, magnetic fields simply do not interact with electric fields, unless you want to consider the orthogonal relationships described in Schrodinger’s wave equations. Otherwise you could pick up a magnet with a balloon you rubbed on your cat.

Second, Thermo 101: the only ways one can increase the energy produced by an internal combustion engine (and hence mileage or horsepower) is to 1) increase the heat content of the fuel being burned or 2) improve the efficiency of the combustion. That assumes the mechanical efficiency of the engine remains constant. Try as you may, you cannot repeal the Second Law of Thermodynamics.


John