Terrorist attacks in Paris.

[Keith]

+1 on the 7.62 David....

The 5.56 idea was a non runner from the beginning...

We should have stuck with our 7mm development following WWII and not given in to the US demand for NATO standardisation of 5.56mm.

The 7.62 is a chunky round with a kick and while I never got to shoot the 7mm (I think very few did) I reckon it would have made a perfect compromise and seen off some bad guys that probably survived the rinky dink 5.56. However, seeing as it took 5,000 rounds to off two terrorists in Paris yesterday (presumably 5.56 or maybe 9mm MP5's?), perhaps there was a point to a lighter round..you can carry more to the party.

David, you'd better hope that Comrade Jeremy Corbyn doesn't get elected in 2020 because he wouldn't sanction use of the ultimate weapon.

 

[David Morton]

The .762 can go through the modern 4" thermalite wall and still cause considerable tissue damage where as the lighter .56 will only scratch the surface of the wall with only 60 to 70% of the velocity and 45% of the weight. More like a pea shooter really. Isis are using the AK47 Kalashnikov which has the same round (.762) with about 2300ft/second velocity [much faster on newer rifling ] and a standard magazine of 30 rounds] Using Auto its just like a machine gun. If we cannot use the .762 rifles (SLR and later) then the next gun battle - probably on the streets of Knighstbridge - will be very one sided. Put it in a realistic scenario -= The .762 will penetrate the door of a car and cause considerable damage to the person inside but the current weapon will barely get through the door.

 

[Charlie Farley]

At the risk of repeating myself.
Why don't we go at them on the ground ?
We surely must have learned the basic mistakes we made in Iraq & Afghan...
Don't get into urban warfare, just completely surround the main area where they are based. Totally cut off supplies of everything including essentials,
like water. I'm sure given thought and preparations THIS TIME!!... we could implement safety procedures for the exodus that would in turn ensue.
Although I have to say, given their behaviour so far and a penchant for reacting a tad overly enthusiastically, I'm not convinced too many taxis would make it through.
We don't operatives slipping through again, like recently.
Encircled and pressured, with no electricity, water and shit piling up in the toilet, there IED's will be obsolete, because we are going no where near them.

 

[Charlie Farley]

David,

My heart is with you, use a big broom...

However, I'm not convinced about that, it has rarely worked in the past.
Simple wars like WW1 & WW2, subsequently Korea and with our Empire, so called ' police operations' like Kenya & Malaya, Borneo and Oman all involved us in fighting a very small number of nations.

It is only since Korea, that Coalition actions regarding Iraq & Afghan have taken place and involved many nations, on our part.
Both these adventures , in my opinion, turned out very sour.

If we , perceived widely in the Muslim world as a coalition that supports Israel, at the expense of the creation of the Palestinian nation, were to use nuclear weapons, whether battlefield. tactical or strategic, it would lead to a war we have never seen before. ( BTW, I have much sympathy for the plight of the normal people of Palestine, but that does not extend to the shits they have as corrupt and manipulative, cat fighting politicians. But hey, they are the same everywhere. )

By saying that using the ultimate weapon would have consequences, I will list only a few.
I believe we would have to endure :

Muslims around the world are constantly being urged to believe that the established World Order in the West is there to subdue and suppress them.
Thus the dropping of a weapon of that type would be exploited by even moderate clerics to join in with other Muslim countries.
They would launch attacks on us, the likes of which we have never seen before.
I'm not sure we have given sufficient thought and conducted preparations to meet even 50% of what they would throw at us.

There has been a lot of thought and speculation in recent years, that China is our greatest enemy. Imagine 2.1 - 2.7 times the population of China having a religious inspired grudge. Thus my point about the number of combatants involved previously, in up to that point considered, global conflicts.
This would be on a whole different scale.

As in Iraq & Afghan, they would try to draw us into traditional urban warfare and attack us in our own countries.

I wish I believed it was as simple as a clean broom.

With asymmetric warfare, cheap access to computer hacking, and the sheer number of fighting age muslims that live in the west and could easily be radicalised, I fear that is the worst thing we could do.


Hearts & Minds is the only way.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Firstly, I suggest sorting out Palestine ...
That would engender , I believe, a genuine and longstanding bonus from muslims , worldwide.
This would surely negate much of the groundswell, if not supporting actions against us, at least amongst moderate believers sitting on the fence.
Ultra orthodox jews are, in their own way, fanning , if not indeed stoking a good deal of the seeds of this problem.
Same Old Same Old,

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Yeah, they keep putting themselves in the way of the knives, bullets, and bombs. Damn Jews
Sorry David, I did it again, damn Jews

 

[Keith]

Al. he said "Ultra Orthodox", (read "radical"). No need to play the race card, that wasn't the issue.

 

[Keith]

David, I am a little worried about your reference to a .762 round. In Imperial measurement it would take out a tank and vapourise your rotator cuff and in metric it would gently flutter by..

 

[David Morton]

Keith,
The ak47 had a similar bore but a shorter round (39mm)- NATO had the 7.62mm x 51mm (almost 2 inches long in old money ) hence its weight and potential power. The Soviet round was about 3/4 of the weight but the velocity was similar though the ak47 rifling deteriorated quite quickly wih use probably because they were seldon cleaned. In the British environment (Army) each individual had to show the cleanliness of his rifling. I think the command was "Port arms for inspection.PORT ARMS".(Keith you may know better than me) The SLR was made in the UK under licence from Fabrique National (Belgium) and called the L 1a1 I think. After the Lee Enfield .303 it was a welcome relief.

 

[Keith]

Sorry David, it was just a matter of a decimal point and I as being facetious. I did use the .303 for a while on the ranges and the MKIV Lee Enfield was a fine accurate weapon with a high rate of fire for a bolt action. I achieved Marksman status with such a piece. The problem with the SLR was the unsupported barrel and there was potential for warping in hard use, plus I never got the same repeatable accuracy. I have no idea why not..

Port arms for inspection and shove your thumbnail in the breech so that light would be reflected up the bore for the inspecting officer. Oh yes, remember it well..

 

[David Morton]

I was just messing about with some of the formula for the inclination of a shot at 1000 yds and 2500 f/s exit and I came up with the diameter for a gastric band. Right, time for lunch and other things. Why did I start all this shit.
ps - my last rifle was the BSA Martini International MK 2, a long round .22 (with the famous Parker Hale sight) for competition shooting only. Bought new in Germany (Bielefeld) and sold to a chap in the shooting club at RAF Waddington for a vastly inflated price. Anschutz had yet tomake a name for itself.

 

[David Morton]

British Press today :
Last updated: 20 November 2015, 14:30 GMT Print this story

Police chief warns of terror attack 'massacre' amid cuts controversy
Police and the public would be "massacred" if a major terror attack was launched outside London, a policing boss has warned.

Surrey's Police and Crime Commissioner warned officers would be left badly exposed by a Paris-style attack in the face of Government cuts
Police and the public would be "massacred" if a major terror attack was launched outside London, a policing boss has warned.

Pressure is mounting on the Government to curb cuts to budgets amid stark warnings from police chiefs and commissioners about how they will cope with a significant assault.

A private letter to the Home Secretary from senior officers has warned that a reduction in officer numbers would "severely impact" on their ability to respond to a Paris-style attack.

Labour has called on the Government not to inflict swingeing cuts on police forces as details of next week's spending review, which is set to squeeze budgets further, are finalised.

Kevin Hurley, Police and Crime Commissioner for Surrey and former head of counter-terrorism for the City of London Police, claimed that police responding to a terror attack outside the capital would be "massacred".

He told the BBC: "The people would be massacred. The first responding police would also be massacred.

"And eventually we would mobilise sufficient assets from the police but with major military support."

He warned that police would be out-gunned by people with automatic weapons such as the AK47.

"All our armed response units carry single shot rifles," he said. "The last time we sent single shot riflemen against machine guns was in the First World War."

Mr Hurley said there were "nowhere near" enough armed police with the weapons they needed to deal with the threat.

"If you keep cutting the police budget as badly as it's been done so far, it will not be possible to deal with it," he added.

Shadow home secretary Andy Burnham has warned that savings above 10% would be "dangerous and put public safety at risk".

In a letter to Theresa May, he said: "Given the events in Paris last weekend we repeat our belief that it would be unwise to ask the police to deliver further difficult savings above 5% over the next five years."

He added: "Reductions in mainstream policing will not only significantly impact on the 'surge' ability of the police to provide the additional support required at an emergency incident, but cuts to neighbourhood policing will have a detrimental effect on local intelligence gathering and countering terrorism."

Downing Street said details of the settlement for police would be announced in next week's spending review.

"We are absolutely clear we will do everything necessary to keep our people safe," the Prime Minister's official spokeswoman said.

A National Police Chiefs' Council spokeswoman said: "Following the tragic terrorist attack in Paris last week, we have been reviewing our ability to respond to a well-organised, multi-sited terrorist attack in the UK. Our officers are well trained and equipped and we are constantly evolving to meet the threat from terrorism.

"As you would expect, we are discussing our capacity to respond to an attack like the one in Paris with the Government. These discussions include assessments of the number of officers we have to counter terrorism and the impact of future funding cuts.

"We do not comment on leaked documents, which form part of these important discussions."

 

[Robert May Eng.]

I would have thought the police would be woefully out of their depth`s dealing with terrorists. Surely this falls into the lap of the secret services and intelligence agencies with perhaps the SAS in tow. I cant see street plod being effective against the terror threat. Where the fuck is 007 when you need him.

Bob

 

[David Morton]

I think we all own the problem - every department you mention, and there are more , and every one of us. If anyone disowns their part in this major problem we are all facing, then he or she should make their case and state the facts as to why.
Would they become labelled as an "objector"as happened in the world wars ? Everyone has a conscience I suppose . However I cannot see the local Muslims in each town raising too much in terms of objections - after all four of them from here went to Syria to join Isis.
I feel quite jubilent when they are targetted and disposed of by the drones.
Isis and their wild stupidity - it's now becoming almost a daily event. Where tomorrow? In your back yard maybe.

 

[David Morton]

If age wasn't a barrier, would you rejoin something in the forces or even a local reserve army much like the Territorials ?

 

[Robert May Eng.]

If age wasn't a barrier, would you rejoin something in the forces or even a local reserve army much like the Territorials ?

I dont think I could join the front line and be cannon fodder but would put my name down for covert ops.

Andrew Neils rant.Stick with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muuka8KBd7Y

Bob

 

[Keith]

That's bang on Bob. Thanks for posting and by the way, I don't think you would qualify for covert ops. They like 'grey' people...

 

[Larry L.]

Where the fuck is 007 when you need him.

Bob

"...keeping the British end up", of course...

 

[Keith]

We have truncheons and we're not afraid to use them :furious:

 

[Nick]

.

Andrew Neils rant.Stick with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muuka8KBd7Y

Bob

:thumbsup: