Truck-engined SLC? Engine management?

[Dan Fraley]

Hello, everyone. I discovered the SLC recently while debating what sports car I want to buy in the near future. The SLC is an amazing piece of machinery. Here in Dallas, everyone drives Porsches and other expensive cars. The only cars anyone even blinks at are supercars like Lamborghinis or Ferraris. My problem with those is if I am going to have that awesome of a car, I want to drive it a lot. Which is impractical for maintenance downtime reasons and also stupidly expensive. So I love the SLC because it has supercar looks and performance with grocery getter maintenance and reliability (depending on your drivetrain). I love the sound of a V8 as much as the next guy but I feel like a v10 or v12 sound suits the exotic looks of the SLC much better (and I just like to be different). But a used M5 v10 or similar runs 10k+ and then needs to be rebuilt. Maintenance would also get pricey. So how about using a Ford 3 Valve 6.8 V10? They are plentiful, dirt cheap (turn key used with 30,000 miles for ~$4k, rebuilt long blocks for ~3k), reliable, and easy to maintain. It's only ~27.5" long (which should fit lengthwise), pumps out 362HP and 457 ft-lb at 3250RPM. I like the mid-range buckets of torque!

See here:

Ford 6.8L Liter Engine Specs, Ford Engine Specs, Ford 6.8L engine, We are a Large Ford Truck Dealership, Meadowland Ford, Secaucus NJ

Ford modular SOHC & DOHC tech & specifications

So what do you guys think? Any fitment issues? I'm not concerned with making crazy horsepower right away. I just want a reliable but fun daily driver that doesn't spend its days in repair garage sucking my wallet dry (I commute 40 miles round trip 5 days a week). Again, sound is very important to me otherwise the LS is a no-brainer!

 

[Will Campbell]

Engine weighs 640 lbs according to your chart. LS weighs under 400.

Do the math: much more weight, much less power, much less fuel economy.

Plus you have to drag around 240 extra pounds of weight everywhere you go- up hills, around turns, and down hill (when you are trying to brake).

 

[Paul Osborn]

Engine weighs 640 lbs according to your chart. LS weighs under 400.

Do the math: much more weight, much less power, much less fuel economy.

Plus you have to drag around 240 extra pounds of weight everywhere you go- up hills, around turns, and down hill (when you are trying to brake).

...and much more heat to dissipate, i.e. moar fan, coolant, pump, radiator.

 

[John Ross]

Again, sound is very important to me otherwise the LS is a no-brainer!

The "exotic sound" of a low compression 350 HP V10 truck motor, vs a 500 HP LS V8 at full chat? I rode with Chris Hall around Road Atlanta at full throttle in a van with a Triton V10 in 1999 and it sounded about as exotic as my washing machine. What exhaust manifolds would you plan on using? And more importantly, which transaxle would you use for the V10's torque curve?

JR

 

[Randy V]

Afraid some of my brothers here have forgotten their manners!

Welcome to GT40s.com Dan..

If it is exotic sound you want - you may be better off trying rotary power for its compact size and sound. There's another fellow here that was headed in the direction of a flat plane crankshaft for an LS. Then there are other potential exhaust system mods that you may want to work out which will alter the sound emissions as well.

Good luck with whatever route you choose!

 

[Sam H.]

Afraid some of my brothers here have forgotten their manners!

Welcome to GT40s.com Dan..

If it is exotic sound you want - you may be better off trying rotary power for its compact size and sound. There's another fellow here that was headed in the direction of a flat plane crankshaft for an LS. Then there are other potential exhaust system mods that you may want to work out which will alter the sound emissions as well.

Good luck with whatever route you choose!

That flat plane crank thread was an interesting read and a very cool project. However, after all of that IMHO I think the best bet to get "exotic" sound is to just go with 180 degree headers. It seemed like that was a lot simpler than a flat plane crank.

This is probably the best video of an LS engine with 180 degree headers I could find on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoAPfJ4Rkbs

 

[Paul H]

Another option would be a ford boss 302 coyote engine. Modern twin overhead cam so fairly fuel efficient, and high revving so a decent sounding engine. New in the crate they run around $10k, and no expensive foreign parts.

While heavy works fine in a truck (I drive a turbo diesel) you don't want a heavy engine in an SLC as it'll spoil the joys of a feather lite car.

 

[John Ross]

Afraid some of my brothers here have forgotten their manners!

Despite his use of the plural, I think that comment was directed at me specifically...

Dan, I am the last person who would want to stifle anyone's creativity when it comes to anything cool like cars or motorcycles. Please forgive me if I seemed to scoff at your thinking outside the box.

Stainless Specialties makes high quality exhaust components. I used two of their polished mufflers on my V8 motorcycle with great results. I think a set of their echo cans (two, or maybe even ten) on your Ford V10 truck motor might make for an awesome sound.

Stainless Specialties - Tips

Good luck!

JR

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

Welcome Dan.

Imo the only reason to venture down the path you are suggesting is: because you want to...
There is absolutely no objective argument to make for a Ford v10- not cost, not weight, definitely not performance or even ease of install.

That said, I would love and encourage you to pioneer a new combo! I've done many mods that make little sense for the intended use of my SLC.

At the end of the day, the only reason you need is your own... "just because" works for me.

 

[John Ross]

Okay, serious analysis here. Your original post implies that parts costs are important. That would include the transaxle. I believe the least expensive available transaxle suitable for V8 or V10 torque is the 4 speed unit from the '78-85 Porsche Turbo 930. Ratios are as follows: 1st 2.25 2nd 1.304 3rd .893 4th .625 Ring gear is 4.22

With a torque peak at 3250 RPM, the V10 would be doing 98 MPH at peak torque in TOP GEAR, and the engine would thereafter start to run out of breath, being all done around 140 MPH. Is this the kind of performance you envision for your supercar? I suspect driving this combo in an SLC would be very frustrating. I think I'd be spending 98% of my time in 3rd and 4th at any speed over 35 MPH, and wishing I had three more gears in the box.

With the LS crate motor, peak torque @4600 gives 140 MPH in 4th and at peak power around 180 MPH. These numbers look a lot better for the kind of car you appear to want. The cost difference of a NEW LS376 crate motor over a junkyard V10 is trivial in relation to the overall build cost.

That's leaving out the (substantial) weight and fitment issues.

JR

 

[Mesa]

If intent on a V10 - Would a Viper engine be worth consideration? Audi make a V10 as well, although I would think more expensive and possibly dificult to find an engine management system. The Ford truck engine might have the same 'problem' getting the engine electronics to talk to the car.

 

[Howard Jones]

Here's an idea. My new F150 has a 5.0 365HP 4 valve V8 that is related to the above mentioned coyote engine. I bet you could get one out of a used engine yard along with the ECU/harness for half of the price of a crate coyote and it's related parts and still have the same exaust sound once you fit a set of headers.

If you want to make it easy just do a set of 4 into 1 headers with a H pipe.

Low cost, good reliable power, and the sound you want.

Oh........and welcome to the website and the SLC group.

 

[Justin]

The Viper V10 is too big. If I go with the SLC, I would consider the EcoBoost 3.5, maybe the Nissan 3.7L, or GM just introduced a new 4.3 V6 (not related to the original). All three of those engines put out adequate to decent power, and two of them are pretty light weight.

Just a thought...

 

[Erik Johnson]

If exotic sound is what you are after try to find a front end crashed Audi R8 and then transplant the engine and transmission out that. Depending on the extent of the damage there is likely to be quite a few parts still good that you could sell to the Audi owners to help offset the cost. V-10 nice redline and a great sound. I don't think you can go wrong with this setup.

Just food for thought.

 

[Dan Fraley]

Wow, thanks for the quick response, everyone. You all seem like great people which is going a long way in persuading me to become a member of the SLC building community. No offense taken, by the way. I expected to get heck for such an odd suggestion. I am just in the investigative stage here as an SLC build would be at least a year out from now. I'm new to the kit car so I know nothing about making an engine run outside its native habitat. From what little I've read I got the impression that running a modern engine such as an Audi V10 is no easy task from an electrical standpoint (correct me if I'm wrong). I can't justify spending an extra 10-20k for a v10 engine with the same power as the LS. I was looking for something different because I live in the land of the V8 engines. Every male drives a Mustang/Camaro/Challenger/Corvette and every sorority sister and soccer mom has a Tahoe. So I was looking for something a bit different. I knew the engine would be heavy but I didn't realize it was that much heavier than an LS.

I think the Ford V10 sounds quite exotic, myself:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzMJHvSvy7k]F250 V10 exhaust - YouTube[/ame]

But I agree that it's too heavy and not worth the cost savings.

I really like the 180 degree header idea! I found another video of a set on an LS that sounds excellent.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZTbR6C6Lw]Corvette with 180 Degree Headers - YouTube[/ame]

That just might be the ticket!

Other ideas I liked:

BMW 4.4 V8 TT
Mercedes V12 biturbo (probably too long but amazing engine) (exhaust link)
Subaru engines (I designed and built a turbo system for one of these myself
so I know the engine well)
Porsche flat 6s
Rotary
Gas Turbine (holy crap that would be awesome for a non-daily driver)

So my question now is how difficult/expensive are engine management systems? Does it vary greatly depending on the engine? Do people just yank the computers from running cars?

P.S. As a Mechanical Engineer myself, I am quite impressed with the design of the SLC from the pictures and videos I've seen. So much so that I'm not looking at any other kit cars. Much respect, Fran!

 

[Ben Whittle]

Bmw n73 v12

 

[Ron Earp]

I used to own a truck with the Ford V10 and a manual transmission. Rare bird. I had the "good one", the 3V version with the hp and tq stated. The engines are cool, in a truck.

The comments about the sound are are spot on. It has a "moan", much like the Viper V10, that just doesn't sound very good, in my opinion of course. If you decide to go with one there are a few guys out there that can tune the ECU and they do wake up with a tiny bit of work.

Five Star
Got a V10 Ford F250/350/450/550?

I never did modify my truck at all but found it quite powerful, for a truck engine, but far from a performance engine. Ford built it for one reason - they couldn't get any more bore/stroke out of the Triton 5.4L V8 so creating a V10 was the only way to have a large gas engine for the F250 trucks using the existing architecture they had in place.

As far as using one in an SLC? Well, I like weird shit so go for it! BTW Kenne Bell did make a blower kit for the V10. Not sure if they still make them.

R

 

[Troy Truglio]

The little guys in my head talked to me. Be different they said, do what pretty much no one has done and it will be fun they said, do not listen to others and keep it simple with the LS376 or the V6TT you know they said, it will only take a tiny bit longer to build they said, Rev to 9000 and that will sound and feel amazing they said, 500hp is not enough and 700 is what you should have they said.

Dang voices. Anyone ever hate themselves at times for listening to their own demions. UGGGG if how I feel sometimes.

My little advice. Keep it simple, do what has been done and enjoy. The LS376/480 I got a ride in was stupid fast and I still question my sanity on a daily basis.

 

[Troy Truglio]

If you want exotic sound you can call Honda.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKogppTYio"]F1 sound! Honda HSV KEIHIN - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Tyson Silva]

Wow.......what are the specs? Sounds amazing